Guru in ISKCON Srila Prabhupada on Blue Vyassasana

Published on March 7th, 2009 | by mahaksa-dasa | Full size image

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Prabhupada Wanted No More Gurus for 10,000 Years–A Completely Bogus Idea

What some 10,000 year philosophers are doing is highly offensive, IMHO. They are just as bogus as the dudes who grabbed vyasasanas as soon as their only bar to sitting in the seat was now dead and gone. I say this because such folks are placing restrictions on Srila Prabhupada, Lord Balarama, and the whole guru tattwa.

“The Final Order,” the IRM’s “Bible” states the following:

“The disciplic succession, or guru parampara, is eternal; there is no question of it stopping. According to Srila Prabhupada, the Sankirtan Movement, (and hence ISKCON), will only exist for the next 9,500 years. Compared with eternity 9,500 years is nothing, a mere blip in cosmic time. This would appear to be the time period during which Srila Prabhupada shall remain the ‘current link’ within ISKCON, unless he or Krsna countermands the July 9th order, or some external circumstance renders the order impossible to follow (such as total thermo-nuclear annihilation). Previous acaryas have remained current for long periods of time, thousands (Srila Vyasadeva) or even millions of years (see quote below). We see no reason why the duration of Srila Prabhupada’s reign as ‘current link’, even if it extends right till the end of the Sankirtan Movement, should pose any particular problem.

“Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps […] we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krsna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system – namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him […] We have to pick up from the authority of the acarya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.” (SP Letter to Dayananda, 12/4/68)

The July 9th order is significant since it means that Srila Prabhupada shall be the prominent acarya, at least for members of ISKCON, for as long as the Society exists. Only the direct intervention of Srila Prabhupada or Krsna can revoke the final order (such intervention needing to be at least as clear and unequivocal as a signed directive sent to the entire Society). Thus until some counter-instruction is given, the science of devotional service shall continue to be transmitted directly by Srila Prabhupada to successive generations of his disciples. Since this is a common phenomenon in our disciplic succession, there is no cause for alarm. The succession can only be considered ‘ended’ if this science of devotional service is lost. On such occasions, Lord Krsna Himself usually descends to re-establish the principles of religion. As long as Srila Prabhupada’s books are in circulation, this ‘science’ shall remain vigorously intact, and perfectly accessible.”

Haribol, Im with Visoka das on this issue, and if I never see “10,000 or 9,500 years” in reference to anything of a Vaisnava topic again, this would be fine with me.

Everything I have read about this presumptuous idea is bogus, especially the bogus equasion that if a=b and b=c the a=c. Not true, maybe in first grade math this holds true, but not necessarily in any of the higher maths. And there is the issue of apples and oranges.

What some “10,000 year philosophers” are doing is highly offensive, IMHO. They are just as bogus as the dudes who grabbed vyasasanas as soon as their only bar to sitting in the seat was now dead and gone. I say this because such folks are placing restrictions on Srila Prabhupada, Lord Balarama, and the whole guru tattwa. These folks are stating that something cannot occur, such as a powerful Vaisnava Acarya is not allowed, not just in a foundation, these folks are saying they are not even welcome in this planet, and TFO even denies the access to interplanetary existance.

It seems that KKdas is a proxy member of this council as well. There is a rush to defend this person, but if he cannot defend himself, why hear from his proxies.

And why 10,000 years is such a key, Ill never know. A golden age of the Golden Avatar is spoken of by Srila Prabhupada, but he does not insert himself into such an age to be there at all times.

Our branch of Vaisnavism cannot be seen as being connected (alive) without attributing it (the connection) to the AUTHORITY of the line. This goes without saying, everyone agrees that for the rest of time, not just 10,000 years, all philosophies concerning bhakti yoga will be incomplete without attribution to Srila Prabhupada. He is the authority for all future Acaryas, just as Srila Prabhupada Himself accepts the AUTHORITY of the SADHUS such as Srila Narotama das and other stalwart authorities he introduced us to thru his teachings. A good way for us to give first crack concerning the bonafidelity of whom we hear from is to see how (s)he attributes to Srila Prabhupada for the givfts (s)he proposes to give to the hearer.

Being the AUTHORITY for all future acaryas is never in doubt by a faithful disciple, but to call this a 10,000 year span where no one else may dare to give what they are given to all who may approach them, this is bogus. To say that no pure devotees were made by Srila Prabhupada is also bogus and is no different than saying that Srila Prabhupada has failed in his missionary work.

Like I say, if I never read “10,000 years” again, I will be so happy. The whole idea is way out of context and a miserable concoction.

Hare Krsna. ys, mahaksadasa

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27 Responses to Prabhupada Wanted No More Gurus for 10,000 Years–A Completely Bogus Idea

  1. Gaurasundara Dasa says:

    References for 10.000 years.

    SENAPATI BHAKTA (Predictions of Prabhupada’s appereance)

    Brahma Vaivarta Purana also describes a conversation that took place in Dvaraka between Lord Krishna and Srimati Ganga devi. Ganga devi came to express her fears at the advent of the Kali Age, and the imminent departure of the Lord back to His Eternal Abode. In anxiety, she spoke on behalf of all the sacred rivers, saying:
    “Oh Lord, we can see that Your pastimes are about to end, and people are becoming more and more materialistic. You have been very merciful to us. After You leave, however, all the sinful people of Kali Yuga will bathe in our waters, and we will become overwhelmed with sinful reactions.”
    Lord Krishna smilingly replied, “My dear Ganga Devi, please be patient. After five thousand years My mantra-upasaka (worshiper of the Holy Name) will appear in this world and spread the chanting of the Holy Names everywhere. Not only in Bharata-Varsha (India) but also all over the world people will chant Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare.”
    “By this chanting, the whole world will become eka-varna, having one designation, namely, Hari-Bhaktas, devotees of Lord Hari. And because the devotees of Lord Hari are so pure, anyone who contacts them will become purified from sinful reactions. These pure devotees will visit Bharata-Varsha and purify you from sinful reactions by bathing in your sacred waters. This period of worldwide chanting of Hare Krishna will continue for ten thousand years.”
    This Mantra-Upasaka is Srila Prabhupada, the Lord’s Senapati Bhakta. The ten thousand year period is just beginning, the Golden Age within Kali Yuga.

    Prabhupada is indeed the extraordinary Acharya of the Golden Age. He is the “Mor Senapati Bhakta”, the “Military Field Commander” who was predicted by the Lord Himself to lead Lord Chaitanya’s sankirtan army. Time will tell; everyone will come to know of his greatness. That also is predicted.
    In Chaitanya Mangala, it is recorded that Narada Muni, while visiting the spiritual world, came upon Lord Gouranga. Shri Gouranga Dev told him of His mission to destroy the sinful activities of the Kali Age.
    He said, “With the powerful chopper of Nama-Samkirtan, I shall cut the hard knots of demoniac desires from the hearts of everyone. Even if the sinners reject religion or flee to foreign countries, still they will get My mercy. I will send ‘mor senapati-bhakta’ to go there and deliver them.” Mor means “My”, senapati means “military field commander,” and bhakta means “devotee.” So, “Mor Senapati-Bhakta” refers to that great devotee who will lead Lord Chaiainya’s sankirtan army, who is empowered by the Lord to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world. That Mor Senapati Bhakta is Srila Prabhupada, and even some may not yet recognize it, in time they will. This is the greatest benediction of our time.

  2. gaurasundara das says:

    Srila Prabhupada’s position as acarya (spiritual master authorized) of ISKCON is unquestionable. The subject is not to adopt the position of acarya, but to become an acarya. Srila Prabhupada is recognized worldwide as the founder and spiritual master of the Hare Krishna movement. Mainly for having fulfilled the order of his spiritual master Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati to preach in English in the Western world. Srila Prabhupada not only preached in English but in all languages of the world. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta ordered him to write. Srila Prabhupada wrote more than eighty books. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta ordered to publish and Srila Prabhupada published millions of books, and are still running. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta instructed his disciples to preach in the West and the only one who can be considered the true successor acarya of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is Srila Prabhupada.

    At any time any acarya ordered anyone to adopt the position of acarya. Neither the acarya can be selected by votes. One thing is to become acarya and quite another thing is to assume the position of acarya because that is cheating.

    Srila Prabhupada accepted the title of Srila Prabhupada because his disciples accepted him so. But the usurpers of the so-called “GBC” of so-called “ISKCON” of today assumed the position of acarya without be acaryas, first decided give to themselves the names of “Pada’s” and now changed that to call themselves “Srila” assuming the position successors to Srila Prabhupada, but that’s cheating. An Acarya can not be elected by vote of a particular group. Besides the “GBC” only gives the position of successor acarya someone to be a good politician or cheater and they does not grant such order to a true devotee and a true devotee does not accept such a political position.

    The cheater says “OH! I was selected teacher but I am a cheater, how can I say no?” This is their concept of Trinat api sunichena taror api sahisnuna. False crowned kings who are calling themselves humble, but are full of material proud.

    Srila Pabhupada is a saktyavesa avatar, or someone who descend with a specific purpose, more even Srila Prabhupada is an intimate associate of Sri Caitannya Mahaprabhu. So how can anyone in this world compare with him?

  3. Bhakta Harry says:

    Srila Prabhupada established himself as the sole initiating acarya within ISKCON in his final, signed institutional directive of July 9th, 1977.

    Srila Prabhupada left no institutional directive that this set-up should ever change.

    The ritvik system of initiation he formally established on July 9th, 1977 (but which had already been operational within ISKCON for a number of years previously) required absolutely no physical involvement from him.

    He consistently taught that the physical presence of the Guru was irrelevant

    He said ISKCON was non-different from Lord Chaitanya’s sankirtana movement.

    He also taught that this sankirtana movement would run for a total of 10,000 years (500 years having already passed since its inception:

    “When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue .”
    (Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.5.23, purport)

    Prabhupada: “This movement will go for ten thousand years without any impediment.”
    (Conversation, June 5th, 1976)

    Therefore, Srila Prabhupada shall remain the sole initiating Guru within a movement that he claimed would last another 9,500 years.

    There is really nothing left for a future acarya to do; Srila Prabhupada has already done everything:

    “There is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavour. Whether I am present or not present, it doesn’t matter.”
    (Srila Prabhupada Arrival Speech, May 17th, 1977, Vrindavan)

  4. Damodar das says:

    Dear Prabhu Mahaksa,

    Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

    Can you tell me or send to my e-mail the meaning of your spiritual name? I have a friend with your same name but he still doesn’t know it clearly, he asked me, but i havent found it yet.
    Excuse me please if it isn’t the right place for that question.
    Thanks in advance

  5. Gaurasundar Das says:

    Lord Sri Krishna and Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu preach about the supreme love of the Gopis, the six goswamis preach the extreme renunciation, Bhaktivinoda Thakur (the 7º goswami) preach about The Jaiva Dharma, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati preach about to chant 64 rounds daily, Srila Prabhupad preach about to follow 4 regulative principles and chant 16 rounds daily, and the preaching of the auto-named acharyas of today is: “Our actual business is to hunt sex and money…..”

    “At confession of part, relay of proof.”

    In conclusion:
    Disciple is who follow. The relationship between the disciple and his spiritual master is from heart to heart and does not depends of an simbolic fire ceremony. “The only one samskara in kali yuga is the chanting of the Holly Names, and not even the aceptance of the spiritual master, but some times apprears an Acharya Who sets the standars.” Srila Rupa Goswami, archana paddati, introduction.

    This book was writted by the explicit order of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, established in the Gaudiya Math by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, in ISKCON by Srila Prabhupad and prohibited by the GBC. “The one who hidden something is because something have.”

  6. Gaurasundar Das says:

    Lord Sri Krishna and Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu preach about the supreme love of the Gopis, the six goswamis preach the extreme renunciation, Bhaktivinoda Thakur (the 7º goswami) preach about The Jaiva Dharma, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati preach about to chant 64 rounds daily, Srila Prabhupad preach about to follow 4 regulative principles and chant 16 rounds daily, and the preaching of the auto-named acharyas of today is: “Our actual business is to hunt sex and money…..”

    “At confession of part relay of proof.”

    Disciple is who follow. The relationship between the disciple and his spiritual master is from heart to heart and does not depends of an simbolic fire ceremony. “In Kali yuga the only one samskara is the chant of the holly names, and not even the aceptance of the spiritual master, but some times apprears an Acharya who sets the standars.” Srila Rupa Goswami, archana paddati, introduction.

    So who is your guru?

  7. jagat chandra das says:

    People like Rameshwara have to be worshipped. They are living proof of the wisdom behind Srila Prabhupada’s action of not naming successor(s).

    They are proofs that we better stick to what he left behind – a officiating acharya system until a really effulgent personality comes around .

    But it will take a while for Srila Prabhupada’s effulgence to die down to a point where we need another. His effulgence is still in full blast in his books & video & the net & in his disciples

    Jai Srila Prabhupada

    jagat candra das / cochin

  8. Mahasrnga dasa says:

    Hare Krsna Prabhupadanugas,

    PAMHO. AGTSP.

    Rameswar cheated devotees into taking initiation from him and supported the bogus zonal acharya system for 9 years before falling down with
    h a minor. Now he has the audacity to speak thinking everything hes done is
    forgiven and fogotten. Next he’ll want to be a guru again. Insanity runs deep.

    Mahasrnga dasa

  9. Gaurasundara Das says:

    “The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading all over the world with two aims — to establish Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and to kill all the pretenders who falsely present themselves as avatāras. The preachers of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must carry this conviction very carefully within their hearts and kill the demons who in many tactful ways vilify the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. If we take shelter of Nṛsiḿhadeva and Prahlāda Mahārāja, it will be easier to kill the demons who are against Kṛṣṇa and to thus reestablish Kṛṣṇa’s supremacy.”
    sb 7.10-42

  10. Concerning the management of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada left the “Direction of Management”. It was not followed either. He clearly instructed that GBC men were to be elected every three years by a ballot of Temple Presidents.

    see

    http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=176578

    also see the “TOP MOST URGENCY LETTER”

    http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=176578

    and all the legal documents here

    http://prabhupadabooks.com/d.php?g=176577

  11. Gaurasundar Das says:

    Spiritual Daltonism, an ill sickness.

    The transcendental nature of the appearance and activities of the Sakti-avesa-avatar S.D.G.A.C.Bv. Swami Srila Prabhupada because his causeless mercy, are not subject to material time and space, are not the product of the karma of an ordinary human being and therefore His position of Acharya (spiritual master authorized) should not be displaced by the decision of any court in particular, witch decide to draw a volunteer to force, to use His work to his personal benefit, without being considered a rough case of imitation, as if were an museum article.

    The GBC of ISKCON as “executives of devotion” implements the rituik sistem to give contradictory The Order of Guru as Representative of the Supreme Personality of God, Krishna, God in the earthly world, assuming the name of Srila Prabhupada, to move from His position of spiritual master authorized.

    GBC considers even the most highly offensive to give the harimam initiation to a bhakta in the name of Srila Prabhupada, because according to them would be to blaspheme the Acharya already “dead and gone.”

    Certainly the ghosts are offended when one chant Hare Krishna, but happens that this is not about a ghost.

    We turn to the formula that if: (A = B), (B = C) What is the value of the devotee C if A=1 and B=1 where the absolute value of the unit (1) is permanent, always the same and never changes? Mahaksa Das says: “Not true, maybe in first grade math this holds true, but not necessarily in any of the higher maths. And there is the issue of apples and oranges.” Them is true becouse is an issue of apples and oranges of first grade of maths.

    More even Mahaksa Das said: “It is a bogus idea.” How an idea can be bogus? The ideas are good or bad, but are. The monist says “This World is bogus.” But according to the Acintyaveda-aveda-tattua philosophy of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu the inconceivable unity and deference simultaneous, said that this world exists but is temporary. So the humble opinion of Mahaksa Das is bogus, and monistic in nature, like the impersonal nature of GBC due the lack of a personal authority responsible for his actions. When a corporation commits a fraud can not put prisoners to all shareholders, so corporations are impersonal and without a responsible head.

    It is assumed that we must all become pure devotees acaryas (=1).

    “Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discrirninating my guru from yours or anyone else’s.”

    Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura – The Harmonist 1936

  12. Gaurasundara Das says:

    In first grade of maths 2+2=4 this is true, but not necessarily in any of the higher maths?
    In the same line:
    Give harinam initition in the name of Srila Prabhupad you say: “Is highly offensive.” But not is offensive to give the order of guru as the representant of the Supreme Personality of God Krishna, God in the eartly world. In the same name of Srila Prabhupad?
    When you learn Maths and when you forgive.

  13. jagat chandra das says:

    Dear Maharajs, Prabhus & Matajis,

    We all know that Srila Prabhupada had a Ritvik system while he was alive and that it worked well for a few years with hundreds getting initiated without even having even seen him once ( let alone direct personal association of any kind).

    If he could have been Diksha Guru like that for those few years, he certainly can for a few hundred or even a few thousand years especially as he did not name any direct successor(s) nor specify any other system.

    I do not understand the need to debate on this endlessly. The above 2 sentences are all anyone needs to ask people like Ramesvara Das to shut up & chant his rounds rather than belittle the title of ‘madhyama-adhikari’ by claiming to be one by implication.

    Here is a quote by B V Puri Maharaj on Srila Prabhupada that clearly establishes our situation:

    “Previously I said, ‘Maharaja, you have established some gurus but Guru must be one.’ He said, ‘I have not selected. Only rtviks to act in my place now.’ I said, After your demise they will be gurus. Unless you bless a guru to sit on the Vyasaasana, they must go down.’ He said, ‘What to do? Everything is Krsna’s will.’ Then after some time in Vrndavana he passed away.”

    What we have is a system for initiation left behind by Srila Prabhupada in that Ritvik system he had personally installed. Why go in concoctions loosely based on simplistic & imperfect understanding of the Paramapara by this Maharaj or that?

  14. Gaurasundara Dasa says:

    Yes, and what about the “mistic powers” of the “gurus”? For example Rameshvara Maharaj literaly disappeared two million dollars of funding from the BBT into his personal account. Some one can say what is morality?

    • Ramesvara dasa says:

      Dear Prabhus,
      Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I am clearly a lowly fallen conditioned servant of Srila Prabhupada, but the one thing that may save this conditioned soul and help me return to the service of Srila Prabhupada’s and Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtana Movement is that I always used any money I ever had the opportunity to receive in the service of the BBT. I won’t engage in a running email exchange, but I would like to humbly say that whoever is feeding Gaurasundara dasa his information is woefully misinformed, or deliberately misinforming him. The absurd idea that millions of dollars mystically left the BBT accounts and went into my or anyone else’s personal accounts is simply not true, and to keep repeating such nonsense is Vaisnava aparadha against the wonderful sincere devotees at the BBT who helped manage Srila Prabhupada’s Book Fund strictly according to His Divine Order: 50% for book printing and 50% for temple construction.

      As I am very fallen and ignorant, it will not be useful to keep writing about the topic of ritvik guru, except to ask you to kindly consider: when you ask “Why Srila Prabhupada is only the siksa guru, why can’t He also be futuire generation’s diks guru?” – I would ask you to explain why you can’t also declare that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura has suddenly given you diksa initiation? And, why stop there? Why not announce that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has suddenly given you diksa initiation. And why stop there- why don’t you start claiming that Srila Rupa Goswamui, or maybe even Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself has suddenly given you diksa initiation? Does that sound logical, or does that sound a little like wishful thinking mixed with a little imaginary mental concoction. That’s why I said that Srila Prabhupada, an eternal associate of Lord Caitanyta Mahaprbahu, is so clearly empowered that He can be the siksa guru for countless generations of devotees. To me, that makes sense. Claiming, for example, 500 years from now, that Srila Prabhupada or other Sampradaya Acharyas suddenly gave someone diksa iniation just doesn’t make sense to me…

      I am very, very sorry if I have committed offenses against the devotees, and I can only beg for your forgiveness and tolerance – I didn’t deliberately intend to offend you, but committed offenses out of ignorance. And I am now trying to make up for that, somehow or other, and pray that one day, now or in some future life that awaits me, you may mercilfully forgive this fallen soul…
      Your lowly eternal servant,
      ramesvara dasa

      • Gaurasundar Das says:

        Ramesvara Prabhu:

        “When the river sounds, is by the stones.”
        Prabhu Tulsi Vrinda told me that about you. And in your last class you said: “I am leaving now, but don’t worry because I`ll give donations.” In a mood of the Lord of Laxmi. “When a sudra gets money he degrades.”

        “What jumps to the sight dont require glasses.”
        When a devotee wants to render devotional service he does not announces it to the four winds. You are using this prestigious site to collect votes, not to pay novitiate again, but to achieve a political position in ISKCON. ¡Oh what elevated! With this you say that ISKCON is a politic party. And the policy has nothing to do with morality. “Too much devotion is the sintom of a robber.” I don’t believe that the members of the GBC accept a such fool as one of its members. The lack of knowledge is the sintom of a person who don`t follow any regulative principle.

        Don`t leave your work.

  15. Gaurasundara Dasa says:

    “The idea of an organised church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of a living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dykes and the dams to retain the current that canno be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bonafide spiritual teacher.”

    (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada, The Harmonist, January 1929)

    “Unfortunately in this age of Kali there are many mundane persons in the dress of Vaisnavas and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has described them a disciples of Kali. He says, Kali-cela, he indicates that there is another Vaisnava, a pseudo-Vaisnava with tilaka on his nose and kunti beads around his neck. Such a pseudo-Vaisnava associates with money and women and is jealous of successful Vaisnavas. Although passing for a Vaisnava, his only business is earning money in the dress of a Vaisnava. Bhaktivinoda Thakura therefore says that such a pseudo-Vaisnava is not a Vaisnava at all, but a disciple of Kali-yuga. A disciple of Kali cannot become an acarya by the decision of some high court. Mundane votes have no jurisdiction to elect a Vaisnava acarya. A Vaisnava acarya is self-effulgent, and there is no need for any court judgement. A false acarya my try to override a Vaisnava by a high-court decision, but Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that he is nothing but a disciple of Kali-yuga.”

    Srila Prabhupada (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila, Ch 1, 218-219)

  16. rajiv says:

    how to give some new idea for managment

  17. Haribol says:

    Dear Mahaksa-Dasa Prabhu, read the Srila Prabhupadas Will and the 9th Julys directive carefully!

    Srila Prabhupada KI JAY!

  18. Hare Krishna, All Glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances.

    Ramesvara Prabhu, why do you keep saying that Srila Prabhupada can be “siksa” guru? Why can he not be a “diksa” guru? or why not both at the same time?

    Srila Prabhupada’s movement clearly operated in such a way that the temple presidents, GBC, bhakta leaders, or managers would recommend potential disciples to Srila Prabhupada for diksa initiation. Srila Prabhupada would rely on them to see that they were ready. In so many cases, Srila Prabhupada’s disciples never even met him but they were accepted.

    This is the rivik system that Srila Prabhupada set up for his movement.

    There is of coarse the famous morning walk were Srila Prabhupada replies to Tamal Krishna about “Rivik Acarya”. Although, for some its not clear, but Srila Prabhupada does clearly say”

    Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.

    Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order…Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order.

    There is no order to stop this rivik process of initiation. In the same conversation Srila Prabhupada clearly replies to Tamal,

    Tamal: Is that called ritvik?

    Prabhupada: Yes

    • murti says:

      PAMHO AGTSP!

      For Gadadhara das to consider please. Prabhu, you have shown us a section of the conversation with Srila Prabhupada and highlighted the words “but by my order”. This highlighting is to support your point that Prabhupada personally ordered the ritvik system. Then later you point out that since no subsequent order to cease this process was given, the ritvik system is Iskcon’s rightful initiation protocol.
      So, my question is this prabhu. How do you understand these eight words at the beginning of the preceding sentence in relation to your highlighted words and in relation to post Srila Prabhupada samadhi initiation? I mean these words: “Because in my presence one should not become”, and in particular: “in my presence”?
      Thanks prabhu.

      • Nityananda says:

        Prabhupada’s presence is in every Iskcon temple in the form of his books, his pictures, his Murti, and most importantly his Vani. So he is very much still present and will remain so until the the 10,000 year golden age is finished.

  19. Ramesvara dasa says:

    Dear Prabhu,
    Please accept my humblest obesiances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I’m so sorry that my imperfect comments were so poorly presented that they caused you to misunderstand them so completely. I am very sorry and apologize for my deficiencies. I truly believe that distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books and presenting His Divine Grace as the founder acarya of the Hare Krsna movement establishes Srila Prabhupada as the siksa guru for the next 10,000 years, and that everyone can be directly connected to Srila Prabhupada through receiving and reading His books. Regarding the idea that devotees who rise to the platform of preachers may become diksa gurus, I only tried to say that it is natural if they actually inspire someone to strictly follow the regulative principles through that initiation and to worship Prabhupada as their highest authority. I also said the obvious – that a person can’t simply declare himself an initiated disciple of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, or of our Srila Prabhupada, if those acarya uttama adhikari gurus are not physically present to iniate you. This is so obvious, but somehow I must have conveyed this plain fact in a way to suggest to you that I was saying you can’t even be connected to Them without a third person as an intermediary, even if you read Their books. I never meant that, and if you thought I said that, I apologize again and again. If someone doesn’t want to accept initiation from the disciples or grand disciples, or great great grand disciples of these uttama adhikari sampradaya gurus, of course they can still directly be in contact with their eternal siksa guru- simply by reading Srila Prabhupada’s books. But, hypothetically speaking, they shouldn’t claim that a guru who is no longer manifest to us on this physical plane has mysteriously initiated them after disappearing perhaps hundreds of years ago. That is simply fantasy, and I don’t see why it needs to be encouraged. For devotees who don’t want to be iniated by anyone “less than” Srila Prabhupada, let them be blissfully content to worship Prabhupada as their siksa guru, follow his orders strictly, read his books, perform guru puja to him – and surely they will feel his divine presence, even as an uniniated devotee. But they are in my mind siksa disciples of Srila Prabhupada. So I’m not misunderstand – they are his glorious siksa disciples. I apoligize if you thought I ever meant to say people can’t be connected to Srila Prabhu[ada without a third party guru. That’s not what I said or believe. My absolute faith in distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books for the next 10,000 years has led me to quite another conclusion. Your lowly servant, ramesvara dasa

  20. frank the fish says:

    Actually the comment by the Mahaksa-dasa is a straw man argument-
    that people say Srila Prabhupada is the guru for the next 10,000 years and no one else can be guru is not the claim.
    The claim is that even if another pure devotee comes along or is here now, they would be preaching that Srila Prabhupada is the guru, and directing people to worship him, and trying to carry out his instructions.
    As the case was with Lord Caitanya that in His presence were many pure devotees, but they direct others to worship Lord Caitanya as master.

  21. Mahasrnga dasa says:

    Hare Krsna Ramesvar prabhu,

    I’m actually quite surprised that after disappearing for a few decades you have surfaced speculating again about the guru issue. I don’t have an ax to grind but I’m sure the hundreds if not thousands of people whose spiritual life were shattered while you were possing as a ‘bona-fide-diksa-guru’ have. You also have some serious karma to work off with all the offenses you committed in regard to your god brothers and sisters. If you think you’ll slide in the back door of Iskcon like Bhavananda, Satyadanya, Jagadish, etc. by regurgitating the same ‘living’ guru crap it would be better to put a straw in your mouth and keep it closed. Devotees are getting smarter everyday.

    Mahasrnga dasa

  22. Ramesvara dasa says:

    Dear Prabhus,

    Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

    Please excuse my lowly and imperfect attempt to share my understanding. When we recite the names of the great acharyas and spiritual masters of the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, Srila Prabhupada’s name appears immediately after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. Our Srila Prabhupada took the transcendental tree of devotional service that was manifest by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu out of India and brought it to every part of this world as the Hare Krsna Movement. Our Srila Prabhupada is an eternal associate of Lord Caitanyta and the Panca-Tattva, and is the divine siksa guru for devotees within the International Society for Krsna Consciousness, generation after generation. The diksa gurus within ISKCON connect devotees to this transcendental tree by distributing the fruits of love of Godhead as purely as they can, and by repeating the order of Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada to their disciples. Lord Caitanya said, “I order every man within this universe to accept this Krsna consciousness movement and distribute it everywhere… By the transcendental desire of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, water has been sprinkled all over the tree, and thus there are inumerable fruits of love of Godhead. Distribute this Krnsa consciousness movement all over the world. Let people eat these fruits and ultimately become free from old age and death.” [Cc. Adi 9.32-39]

    And, of course, we know that distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books is the divine process of watering this transcendental tree so it continues to grow and manifest these fruits.

    In the Madhya-Lila Srila Prabhupada writes, “It is the work of Krsna’s confidential devotees to turn everyone into a krsna-bhakta. If the confidential devotees do not take up this task of elevating everyone to Krsna consciousness, then who will do it? Those who claim to be devotees but do not engage in Krsna’s service to elevate all living creatures to Krsna consciousness are to be considered kanistha-adhikaris (people in the lowest stage of devotional service). When one rises to the second platform of devotional service, his business is to propagate Krsna consciousness all over the world. Those who are active in the Krsna consciousness movement should not remain in the neophyte stage but should rise to the platform of preachers, the second platform of devotional service. Devotional service is so enchanting that even the first-class devotees (uttama-adhikaris) also come down to the second platform to preach and render service to the Lord for the benefit of the whole world.” [Cc. Madhya 24.205]

    To accept initiation and inspiration from initiating gurus who have risen to the madhyama-adhikari stage is how a disciple is officially connected to the sampradaya, and should reinforce the disciple’s connection to Srila Prabhupada, the founder-acharya of the modern Hare Krishna Movement.

    Please don’t make the error of thinking that after Srila Prabhupada’s physical disappearance, all diksa gurus are ritvik gurus. The newly initiated disciples, generation after generation, are perfectly connected to Srila Prabhupada when he is presented as their siksa guru, who descended from the pure spiritual plane to appear in this world and bring the Hare Krsna movement to the entire world.

    Srila Prabhupada is our eternal siksa guru, and is non-different from his transcendental books. Many years ago we made a feeble attempt to write a paper that after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance the initiating gurus, who were not uttama adhikaris, were there to connect their disciples to our sampraday and to Srila Prabhupada. It was imperfectly written and poorly received. Recently I have read an excellent presentation of this truth in a book written by my eternal Godbrother, Sivarama Swami, entitled, “The Siksa-guru, Implementing Tradition within ISKCON”. I humbly recommend this book to anyone who is interested in deeply understanding this topic.

    I am very sorry for the numerous offenses I have committeed against the devotees. Despite that, I am trying very hard to return to the perfect shelter of Srila Prabhupada’s divine lotus feet, so I can go on serving Srila Prabhupada, distribute his books and try to make up for my offenses.

    Your lowliest servant,
    ramesvara dasa

    • madhudvisa-dasa says:

      Hare Krishna Ramesvara Prabhu

      Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

      What you are presenting here has always been the understanding in ISKCON since Srila Prabhupada disappeared from our mundane view. You are suggesting here that now Srila Prabhupada is gone and new devotees can not get connected to him unless they accept initiation from one of his disciples. The idea is that some third person is required in the relationship here. That Prabhuapda can no longer accept disciples unless this third person is there in the middle. So the new disciples can only understand Prabhupada through this third person. And you are suggesting that Prabhupada’s disciples should act as gurus, acharyas even if they are not pure devotees, “as purely as they can,” and in this way connect people to Srila Prabhuapda.

      This is ISKCON’s philosophy for the past 32 years and just see the terrible result of this philosophy. The problem is it ignores the fact that most people, even before they come to an ISKCON temple, even before they meet one of these ISKCON acharyas, who they supposedly need to link them to Prabhupada, are already reading Prabhuadpa’s books, they already have a real and tangible relationship with Srila Prabhupada, they have already been convinced by Srila Prabhupada that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and are already seriously chanting the Hare Krishna mantra.

      So we have to try and analyse what is happening here. What generally happens is some great soul goes out on the street with a book bag full of Srila Prabhuapda’s books. Now this great soul is not thinking that he is so great himself, he is thinking that “Prabhupada is great and Prabhuapda is living in these books and I want to give the people Prabhupada.” He is not thinking he is qualified to link people to Prabhuapda. He does not see the need for him to link people to Prabhuapda. His book bag is full of Prabhupada. He is distributing Prabhupada directly. He is giving people Prabhupada and he is also giving Prabhupada people so Prabhupada can personally preach to them through his books. So the book distributor is giving people Prabhupada directly and personally and the people read the books and get a direct personal relationship with Prabhupada. And in the books Prabhuapda convinces these people to start chanting 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra daily and follow the four regulative principles and they do it.

      So then they come along to an ISKCON temple and are confronted by a bunch of people who quite flatly tell them that Prabhuapda is dead now and you need to have a “living guru” who will be able to connect you to Prabhupada. So you can see the new people are somewhat bewildered by this. They are already connected to Prabhupada! In many cases they are already chanting 16 rounds a day of the Hare Krishna mantra and following the regulative principles. They are experiencing a great relief from the sufferings of the material world through their association with Srila Prabhupada and chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra and they are really feeling very inspired and enthusiastic. But ISKCON will say this can not be, they can not be devotees, because they have not got a living guru… They need to move their attention away from reading Prabhuapda’s books and associating with Prabhuapda and put their attention on the ISKCON gurus, start worshipping them, surrender to them, server them, give them guru daksina, etc.

      So this is the process in ISKCON. “Bait and switch.” The bait is Prabhupada but when the poor innocent devotees come to the temple the ISKCON devotees will do absolutely everything they can to switch the devotee’s attention from Prabhuapda to someone else, a “GBC approved living ISKCON guru”.

      And if his attention can not be deviated from Srila Prabhuapda then ISKCON will label him as a “dirty stinking ritvik” throw him out of the temple and ban him from all ISKCON temples, blaspheme him, call him a heretic, in the old days they would even physically attack and beat him up, that is my personal experience. So he will be punished by the ISKCON devotees because he has unshakable faith in Srila Prabhupada.

      So this is the system you are outlining here. And it is a very offensive system for sure. It is very offensive to think that people need us to connect them to Prabhuapda when Prabhuapda is living in his books and anyone who picks up the book and reads it is immediately connected to Srila Prabhuapda personally. And it is very offensive to insult and ban and bash someone simply because he has unshakable faith in Srila Prabhupada.

      Srila Prabhupada was so anxious that we distribute his books, and that is also why ISKCON are so reluctant to distribute Prabhupada’s books. They know that Prabhupada is living in the books. It is very difficult to understand why the ISKCON book distribution figures are so small. If we look at another small group of people interested in distributing spiritual literature for comparison, say the Jehova’s Witnesses. On average world-wide they print 37 million copies of Watchtower and 36 million copies of Awake! twice a month. That is 73,000,000 magazines a month or 876,000,000 a year. Getting close to a billion magazines a year.

      If ISKCON with hundreds of centers all over the world actually wanted to distribute Prabhuapda’s books they would be distributing them also on a similar scale. But the book distribution is so low now. Down to about 2,000,000 pieces of literature worldwide. You know in 1976 you were printing 1,000,000 BTG’s a month. That is 12,000,000 pieces of literature in just one year, so if you add in the big books and small books you were printing that must be like 17,000,000 pieces of literature or more? And that was just in North America. And now we have so many more temples and so many more devotees the book distribution should have kept on increasing from the 17,000,000 pieces in 1976 and today we should also be distributing around a billion pieces of literature a year like the Jehova’s Wittnesses, but we are distributing less that 2,000,000 pieces of literature worldwide in a year. What happened?

      Obviously ISKCON are not interested in distributing Prabhupada’s books except for attracting a few people that they can then convince to surrender to some guru other than Prabhuadpa who they prommise will “connect them to Prabhupada.” Otherwise, if the leaders in ISKCON wanted to distribute Prabhupada’s books, they would be doing it…

      So back to the main point. This connecting to the disciplic succession can only be done by a pure devotee, an uttama adhikari. We have seen it time and time again in ISKCON and you have personally experienced it in your life. I believe that you and all the other ISKCON gurus who tried like this to accept disciples and connect them to Prabhupada, were doing it very sincerely. But the history clearly shows that they were generally not able to connect their disciples to Prabhupada. This is like a chain and the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. So if you make yourself one of the links in the chain everything in the chain below you depends on you. If you break then everything below you will break also.

      You have seen that in Los Angeles. Even today the devotees there talk about the dramatic transformation of New Dwarka after you left your position of “acharya” there. It was transformed overnight. One week a temple full [and I mean really full] of ecstatic, enthusiastic, inspired devotees putting on festivals and distributing Prabhuapda’s books on a grand scale and then next week, after you left, empty except for a few devotees arguing with each other. And there was so much disagreement and the temple almost closed. It only was saved because Svavasa Prabhu took the responsibility to manage it and he has fought to maintain it for all these years and he has done a wonderful job to maintain the standards of deity worship and he has managed to keep the mood of book distribution alive there also. Still it is only a tiny spark of what was there before you left.

      After you left New Dwarka never recoverd. And that is the story all over the world, here in Australia the preaching was going on so well until Bhavananada left, the preaching immediatly died and has never recovered. UK preaching died when Jaya Tirtha & Bhagavan left and has never recovered. Europe was also devastated first when Bhagavan left and later when Harikesa left. I spent 3 months there last year. Practically everything, except Radhadesh, is empty.

      So the point I am making is this is the terrible result of the guru falling down. So this becoming a link in the disciplic succession so you can connect people to Prabhupada, you have already tried that, and so have so many of your godbrothers, and most have failed, is not as easy as it seems and it requires a pure devotee to do this.

      Rather, ISKCON leaders should learn something from the humble book distributors. The book distributor is not trying to become the guru of the person he is distributing the book to. He is trying to introduce that person to his guru, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, he wants that person to become Prabhupada’s discicple and he is acting as a representative of Srila Prabhuapda. When the person asks some question he will answer that question as a representative of Srila Prabhuadpa. If he is a good representative he will give the answer that Srila Prabhupada would give.

      We should all become like the sincere book distributors and become representatives of Srila Prabhuapda understanding that Srila Prabhupada is our guru and he is still living in his books and he is still available to others also. There is no need for us to become a link between the new person and Prabhupada. Rather than “linking people to Prabhuapda” we are introducing people to Prabhupada and they will have their own personal relationship with Srila Prabhuapda and they will go on to become disciples of Srila Prabhupada also.

      If in your guru days you did this, and if the devotees who became your disciples instead became Prabhupada’s disciples and you acted for them as a representative of Srila Prabhuapda rather than trying to be their link to Srila Prabhupada, then your leaving the movement would have not been the big disaster in their devotional lives that it was. They would have understood that Prabhupada is their guru and that you were having some problems with your spiritual life, but they would have felt confident that they had a direct relationship with Prabhupada so their devotional life would not have been very much disturbed. But unfortunatly they felt that their link to Prabhuapda was through you so when you disapointed them they felt their link to Prabhuapda and Krishna was broken.

      That is why when a guru falls down in ISKCON it is such a disaster for the disciples, for the temples and for the preaching in the whole country or zone. Practically everything is finished when the guru falls down. And we are seeing that mostly the ISKCON gurus do fall down.

      Srila Prabhuapda says you can understand the future by seeing the past. He also said if you keep doing the same thing then you will get the same result. So what you are advising here is that ISKCON keep doing the same thing, that devotees, even if they are not pure, should act as gurus in ISKCON and link people to Prabhuapda. But when this “acharya” falls down the link will be broken and everything will be lost.

      So if ISKCON is to go forward they can not simply continue doing the same thing they have been doing in the past. If they want a different result then they have to change the way they are doing things in regard to guru in ISKCON. ISKCON devotees should act as representatives of Srila Prabhuapda like a sincere book distributor does on the street. They should have the mood of introducing people to Prabhupada, they should encourage everyone to develop their own personal relationship with Srila Prabhuapda, they should not artifically try to act as links in the disciplic succession and try to link people to Prabhupada through them. This is not a very easy thing and can only be done by the topmost devotee.

      Please forgive my offenses in presenting this Prabhu, but I feel obliged to speak like this, please do not take any offence.

      Your servant

      Madhudvisa dasa


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