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Respect

• Subject: Respect
• From: David
• Date: Thu Jul 13 21:17:54 1995
• Message-Id: id578

Dear David

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I have been very busy this week and when I replied to your letter I didn't really
consider your points very well. So I have a little time now and I will try and
answer them. Thank you very much for the input!


>>  THE SCIENTIFIC THEORY OF THE SOUL
>>  ---------------------------------
>>
>>  INTRODUCTION
>>  The intention of this paper is to put forward a scientific theory stated
according to the currently accepted "scientific method" which provides a
verifiable and falsifiable theory establishing the existence of an eternal
spiritual particle present within every living entity. The symptom of the presence
of the soul in a body is consciousness. This scientific theory makes predictions
and can be tested experimentally.
>
>I think that the paper fails in this aim. It does not provide any

>experiments that can be followed and verified experimentally. Although
>I agree with the content, as far as scientific method is concerned it is
>simply conjecture.

My response to this is two-fold. Firstly I believe it is possible to structure
experiments which indicate that at least the soul theory is a valid one and
therefore possibly true. This could be done in the area of out-of-body
experiences. If it could be proven within the framework of a scientific experiment
that someone could do this that would be very good proof of the soul. If OBE's are
established as possible there has to be a soul, something that can leave the body
and travel outside. Also past life recollection. There must be many documented
cases. If that became accepted by science by proper studies and research it would
also establish the existence of the soul. I am sure there are many things we could
find if we seriously think about it.

My second point is many areas of accepted science have little "concrete proof".
Mostly science comes up with models. Many of the models cannot be "proven"
correct. What they are interested is in the quality  of the predictions the model
gives. If a model of the universe allows them to accurately predict the movements
of the planets and the stars and so on that is "good science" but even the
scientists agree [I have asked them in a recent thread in sci.astro and they did
agree that it is all relative. I argued that the earth may well be not rotating at
all, but that it could be the universe rotating around the earth and there were
many "flames" but then some of the most well-known experts [Johnathen Scott is
apparently very well known in this field and he wrote some very nice articles..]
started saying I was correct, and that they really couldn't tell at all whether it
was the earth or the universe rotating! So they are open. If you present something
radical they are prepared to listen and consider it and even accept it if it's
true..

The soul theory does make many predictions as to how things will work and we just
have to think about it and document it.

<snip>

>>  THE "SOUL THEORY" EXPLAINED
>>  There exists, within this material universe, three types of energy: gross
material, subtle material and spiritual. The gross material energy consists of
earth, water, fire, air and ether [defined as the "space" within the universe].
The subtle material energy consists of mind, intelligence and false-ego [defined
as the identification of the body as the self]. The spiritual energy consists of
the soul [the individual living entities] and the supersoul
>
>I would expect proof or references to proof of these claims. These proofs
>must themselves be accepted scientific documents if this document is to
>be considered "scientific". Again, I agree, but it does not conform to
>proper scientific method without such proofs.

But we can write "proper scientific documents". They don't have to be written by
scientists. Its a process and the scientists will accept it [at least the honest
ones] if we put the case properly. But it should be backed up by a body of
scientific evidence. But whether that evidence exists? I'm sure there is some.
Someone suggested that there are people who are born practically without any
brain, but they can still think and act normally. This may be an area for
research. I'm sure there are many things. We have to look for them and present
them.

It's not that we have to do all the work. There are so many scientists out there
enthusiastic to research new fields and "consciousness" is something of a buz-word
at the moment so who knows?

<snip>

>>  Karma:
>>  Karma means literally "actions". It is described by the physical law that each
action has an equal and opposite reaction. This universal law is not limited to
physical actions, it works for any action. If we commit violence against another
the reactions generated and we must experience violence upon ourselves in the
future. This "karma" or the reactions to our actions is not immediate. The karma
is stored in our hearts and it will mature and fructify in due course. If at the

time of death there are still karmic reactions stored within the heart which we
have not  yet experienced then we have to take birth again in the material world
in a body suitable to enjoy and suffer the stored karma.
>
>Very succinct description of this natural and loving process.

This is a VERY nice description of how things go on and it is VERY attractive to
thoughtful people. It makes logical sense out of everything. So there is great
potential for stating this in scientific terms. It can be tested in a much more
tangible way than the big bang and they consider the big bang science...

<snip>

>>
>>  EXISTENCE PROOF
>>  Life or consciousness is the symptom of the soul. There is no other
explanation of consciousness available. No one has been able to show life,
consciousness can be generated from matter. And there are many inconsistencies
which cannot be explained within the present framework, without considering the
existence of the soul. Although there are very clear indications that valid
scientific data could be collected on areas such as out-of-body experiences and
past-life-recall because the current scientific theories don't accommodate the
possibility these things could exist there has been very little real scientific
study in these areas.
>
>There are a number of other explanations of consciousness available. One
>of the most prevalent is that of Jungian "collective unconscious" where
>consciousness is said to arise from matter, but where the recollection
>of "past lives" and "life's lessons" are a result of the experiences of
>each person being recorded eternally in the "collective unconscious". It
>is claimed that each one of us has access to this via a number of paths
>during the brief time that we exist as individuals.
>
>I think it is fundamentally flawed to propose that an answer is correct
>because there is no other available. To convince the larger sceptical
>community you must provide actual proof of your arguments. It is a
>major undertaking to attempt to do this within the scientific
>community. Talk with Sadaputa dasa (Dr Richard Thompson) if you want to
>find out just how complex this can be.

It depends on their [the scientists] mood. If they can see research dollars in it
they will be amazingly interested... And yes there are other theories but our
"theory" is the most attractive one. If we present it purely people will
appreciate it.

<snip>

>
>Personally, I feel that it is possible, though not with current technology,
>to create the conditions by which life will arise. This does not disprove
>the existence of the soul in any way.

Yes. I suspect you are right. We have to be careful with this. The soul "enters"
the material combination at the opportune time. It may be possible to produce that
suitable material combination and have the soul enter it... It would of course
still be a soul in matter. But whether they can actually make an egg? That is an
interesting question. I think not. Because the egg that is going to hatch is
"fertile", the soul must have been put inside already? So I don't know. But Srila
Prabhupada very boldly challenged them that if they want to be taken seriously on
this that they should produce the egg then incubate it to produce a chicken! Of
course they haven't done it, but they are trying very hard...

<snip>

>>
>>  REFERENCES
>>  The science of the soul is described in the Bhagavad-gita, the timeless jewel
from the Indian Vedic texts. A full understanding can be gained from this source.
>
>This is hardly a scientific reference.


Of course it is a scientific reference. The scientists will read it. So many great
thinkers in the past [even in the west] have read it. It is a very well respected
book on the "Science of the Soul."

It would be nice to have lots of other references too. They may exist but I
suspect not much "scientific" research has been done in this field, but I may be
wrong. We will have to find out.

>
>>  Extensive data and documentation is available in the areas of past-life-recall
and out-of-body experiences which could form the basis of much scientific research
work. The "Soul Theory" will also enable many rigorous scientific studies to be
carried out in this area to produce more conclusive data and clarify the
interactions of the soul and matter.
>
>At this point you have not given a single experiment nor identified any
>areas for scientific research. I heartily agree with your theory but I
>cannot begin to consider it "scientific" in the accepted western method.

Yes. It needs LOTS of work.. But it's a start.

"I shall personally inaugurate the religion of the age -- nama-sankirtana, the
congregational chanting of the holy name. I shall make the world dance in ecstasy,
realizing the four mellows of loving devotional service. I shall accept the role
of a devotee, and I shall teach devotional service by practicing it Myself. Unless
one practices devotional service himself, he cannot teach it to others. This
conclusion is indeed confirmed throughout the Gita and Bhagavatam." (Sri Caitanya-
caritamrta Adi-lila 3.19-21)

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Your servant

Madhudvisa dasa.

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