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Haribol! A page to add to your links(if you wish)!

• Subject: Haribol! A page to add to your links(if you wish)!
• From: Bhakta Philip
• Date: Wed Jan 03 12:25:52 1996
• Message-Id: id685

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Dear Bhakta Philip

Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I was very happy to read your explaination of the difference between Krishna
consciousness and straight edge on your page. You said Krishna consciousness is
the higher taste and that is why one can continue to be Krishna conscious for ever
while being straight edge is usually only for a year or two. So we have to get
that higher taste from serving Krishna, from chanting Hare Krishna.

"The treasure of love of God has descended from the spiritual world of Goloka
Vrndavana, appearing in this world as the sankirtana movement of the chanting of
Lord Hari's holy names. Why am I not attracted to it? Day and night I burn from
the poison of material existence, but still I refuse to take the antidote."
(Narotttama dasa Thakura)

Our disease is that even though we know the solution to all problems, chanting
Hare Krishna, we have no attachment to it. But we have to develop that real
attachment and to do it there is a scientific process. It is called Bhakti-yoga or
Krishna consciousness.

             yesam tv anta-gatam papam
                jananam punya-karmanam
             te dvandva-moha-nirmukta
                bhajante mam drdha-vratah

"Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful
actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion,
engage themselves in My service with determination."

Srila Prabhupada says in his purport: "..Only those who have passed their lives in
practicing the regulative principles of religion, who have acted piously and have
conquered sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to the
pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then, gradually, they can
meditate in trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the process of
being situated on the spiritual platform."

So this means coming to the platform of goodness. There are three modes of
material natugoodness, passion and ignorance. The qualities we develop and our
future depend on our association with the various modes of material nature:

                      urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha
                         madhye tisthanti rajasah
                      jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha
                         adho gacchanti tamasah

"Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets;
those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of
ignorance go down to the hellish worlds." (Bhagavad-gita 14.18)

Srila Prabhupada says in his purport: "...There is opportunity for men in the
modes of ignorance and passion to be elevated to the mode of goodness, and that
system is called Krishna consciousness. But one who does not take advantage of
this opportunity certainly will continue in the lower modes."

The hardcore bands have certainly made lots of people aware of Krishna -- no one
can deny that. But the hardcore music is in the mode of passion and the system of
Krishna consciousness is ment to raise people to the platform of goodness, which
is still a material platform, then to suddha-sattva or purified goodness, a
completely transcendental, spiritual position, or Krishna consciousness.

On one side it is good, people hear something about Krishna, but on the other side
it is bad because the medium through which it is presented is in the mode of
passion. And Vraja says this is not bad:

>    Yes, the message of Gita and Bhagavatam is presented through the
>passionate medium of hardcore music. That is unusual, grated, but not

>un-precidented....

But the Bhagavad-gita has this to say about the mode of passion:

              lobhah pravrttir arambhah
                 karmanam asamah sprha
              rajasy etani jayante
                 vivrddhe bharatarsabha

"O chief of the Bharatas, when there is an increase in the mode of passion, the
symptoms of great attachment, uncontrollable desire, hankering and intense
endeavor develop." (Bhagavad-gita 14.12)

Srila Prabhupada says: "One in the mode of passion is never satisfied with the
position he has already acquired; he hankers to increase his position. If he wants
to construct a residential house, he tries his best to have a palatial house, as
if he would be able to reside in that house eternally. And he develops a great
hankering for sense gratification. There is no end to sense gratifaction... There
is no cessation of this. All these symptoms should be understood as characteristic
of the mode of passion."

Krishna consciousness means to raise ones consciousness to the mode of goodness
and that is not possible if one continues to assocate with the mode of passion. So
Srila Prabhupada established a program in which we could always be in the mode of
goodness. That is why devotees, until a few years ago, considered such music as
maya, a disturbance to spiritual life. It still is a disturbance to spiritual
life, even though it may attract some to Krishna. If when they come to the temple
they are not encouraged to give up their attachment to the mode of passion they
cannot make any further advancement and they will also drag the rest of the temple
down with them. (by playing the hardcore music in the ashram, perhaps in the
temple even, who knows?)

>Hello, Hare Krishna!
>I think I understand your point. There is only one thing I can say in defense of
>these bands, and Krishnacore as a whole. Bhagavad-gita tells us it is more
>renounced to do whatever we do normally for Krishna. If you are good at cooking,
>cook in a temple; farming, farm a farm community; playing music, play music for
>Krishna.

"It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it
imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly.
Prescribed duties, according to one's nature, are never affected by sinful
reactions." (Bhagavad-gita 18.47)

The idea is we are all situated in a particular mode of material nature and we
should act accordingly. There are four basic occupational categories:
- Brahmana (priest, the intelligent class) - one in the mode of goodness
- Ksatriya (administrator / king, etc) - in the mode of passion
- Vaisya (farmer, businessman) - mixed modes of passion and ignorance
- Sudra (general worker serving one of the other classes) - mode of ignorance

It is not possible to immediately raise everyone to the mode of goodness. But the
purpose of the Krishna consciousness movement is to enable everyone, no matter
what their situation within the modes of material nature, to serve Krishna and go
back home, back to Godhead. It is not that everyone will be in the mode of
goodness. If a King [in the mode of passion] rules the country under the expert
guidence of qualified brahmanas [in the mode of goodness] then he is perfectly
situated. It is not that the king has to become a brahmana. That is not good:

"It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it
imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly.
Prescribed duties, according to one's nature, are never affected by si
>Of course, you could say that the music must be traditional. If you look
>at this as being their living, their occupation, and they are just doing it for
>Krishna, it is not so bad. Please explain your saying "demoniac music" in more
>detail. Also, Krishna Consciousness is not very known to American youth. I had
>heard the words "Hare Krishna", but had no idea it was a religion. The same thing
>with my friends, but all of our parents know what it is(or know the stereotype).
>The answer is more prasadam distributing, kirtan, etc...but if you could sit in
>an office 9 - 5, as many devotees do, or introduce Krishna consciousness to

>youth, it is good. I think the hardcore music introduces it, then the ones who
>are truly interested will find out more by visiting their temple.
>
>The point of my page is for the kids who get on the internet and want to look up
>information from Shelter, 108, etc. They will see the faq, the links, and explore
>it. Possibly they will become devotees. I had never seen sankirtan until after I
>was a bhakta...it was nice to meet another devotee, but still...I became a
>devotee simply by hearing Shelter, becoming interested, talking to you, chanting,
>and reading Bhagavad-gita. Of course I am just a neophyte, and you will probably
>proove my whole message wrong<hehe>, so, here is my argument.
>--
>Your Servant,
>Bhakta Philip
>
>
>
>Madhudvisa dasa wrote:
>>
>> Dear Bhakta Philip
>>
>> Hello. Hare Krishna.
>>
>> Yes I certainly remember you and I have visited your new page. This issue,
>> hardcore preaching, is a little contraversial within ISKCON and I am also
>> talking with some others about it at the moment. I have included another
>> letter I have written today for your information.
>>
>> As for you the most important thing is for you to rise early in the
>> mornings, chant at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra and
>> seriously read all of Srila Prabhupada's books. That will make your life
>> successful.
>>
>> Your page is very nice but I am not so attracted by the whole hardcore
>> scene. The FAQ is a very nice idea. I have been thinking about doing one
>> also for a while. I would give a little different answers to Vraja  on some
>> matters, however.
>>
>> Anyhow read the following and get back to me. It is nice to hear from you
again.
>>
>> Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
>>
>> Madhudvisa dasa
>>
>> >Dear Jonas
>> >
>> >Hello, Hare Krishna... All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>> >
>> >Hope you had a very Krishna conscious Christmas and New Year.
>> >
>> >The saga continues... It is a very touchy subject indeed, this
>> straight-edge thing. In any case you have come to Krishna consciousness now
>> and whatever benefit there is to be had from straight-edge music you now
>> have. You have somehow been attracted to Srila Prabhupada's movement and
>> Krishna. Now the best thing for you to do would be to find out more about
>> Krishna and get a taste for chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra. That you
>> can do by reading Srila Prabhupada's books, chanting Hare Krishna, serving
>> Krishna, etc.
>> >
>> >"The treasure of love of God has descended from the spiritual world of
>> Goloka Vrndavana, appearing in this world as the sankirtana movement of the
>> chanting of Lord Hari's holy names. Why am I not attracted to it? Day and
>> night I burn from the poison of material existence, but still I refuse to
>> take the antidote." (Narotttama dasa Thakura)
>> >
>> >"You should understand this essential fact: material life is temporary and
>> filled with various kinds of miseries. Therefore carefully take shelter of
>> the holy name and remain always engaged in His service as your eternal
>> occupation." (Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

>> >
>> >Krishna consciousness is a "higher taste". There is great transcendental
>> pleasure in chanting Hare Krishna, reading the Bhagavatam, etc. So now you
>> should do it. It will not help you to listen to hard-core music 24 hours a
>> day. That is not the process. We have to accept the authorized process.
>> There are four regulative principles: No illicit sex life, no meat eating,
>> no gambling and no intoxication, and we chant the Hare Krishna maha-mantra
>> at least 16 rounds a day. As for the rest of our life we spend it serving
>> Krishna, not serving ourselves. It is a very subtle thing. In Krishna
>> consciousness the sense gratification is there, but it is for Krishna -- but
>> the funny thing is that even though we give up all attempts to satisfy our
>> own senses, we are completely happy. Krishna looks after His devotees. When
>> you realize He is looking after you it's a nice feeling.
>> >
>> >The straight-edge movement could be likened to the hippie movement of the
>> 60's. Srila Prabhupada came to the US in 1965 and in 1966 the hippie
>> movement was just starting. He could detect that here were young people who
>> had rejected the materialistic ways of their parents and were looking for an
>> alternative. So he exploited this situation for spreading Krishna
>> consciousness. He moved to the Lower East side in New York, the center of
>> the then emerging hippie culture, and he started preaching to the young
>> people there. But he didn't compromise Krishna consciousness or present it
>> as a part of the hippie movement. He presented the original, pure and
>> timeless message of Krishna consciousness and remained aloof. It was
>> fabulously effective.
>> >
>> >When young people joined Srila Prabhupada he didn't want them to continue
>> to be hippies, he wanted them to become Vaisnavas.
>> >
>> >The thing is we are not hippies, we are not straight-edge and we are not
>> Hindus. We are devotees of Krishna and we have our timeless methods of
>> serving Krishna which are always potent and effective.
>> >
>> >The straight-edge faction in ISKCON is trying to say their method is more
>> effective than the traditional ways of chanting Hare Krishna and
>> distributing prasadam and books [the method Srila Prabhupada used to
>> captivate the hippies in the 60's, and the method Lord Caitanya used to
>> spread Krishna consciousness all over India five hundred yeas ago.] The
>> chanting of Hare Krishna is the "Yuga-dharma", the recognized spiritual
>> process for this age of Kali. It is the chanting of Hare Krishna and the
>> prasadam and book distribution that is important.
>> >
>> >The straight-edge method may be effective in attracting people. But
>> attracting people is not necessarily spiritual. Football matches also
>> attract people. But they are not chanting Hare Krishna. I have seen some
>> lyrics of the shelter songs and they are just words, perhaps attractive
>> ideas vaguely based on Srila Prabhupada's teachings, but still just a
>> collection of words. The Hare Krishna maha-mantra IS Krishna.
>> >
>> >"The holy name of Krishna is transcendentally blissful. It bestows all
>> spiritual benedictions, for it is Krishna Himself, the reservoir of all
>> pleasure. Krishna's name is complete, and it is the form of all
>> transcendental mellows. It is not a material name under any condition, and
>> it is no less powerful than Krishna Himself. Since Krishna's name is not
>> contaminated by the material qualities, and there is no question of its
>> being involved with maya, Krishna's name is always liberated and spiritual;
>> it is never conditioned by the laws of material nature. This is because the
>> name of Krishna and Krishna Himself are identical." (Padma Purana.)
>> >
>> >So the straight-edge preaching has replaced the kirtana, the chanting of
>> Hare Krishna [the traditional and authorized method of spreading Krishna
>> consciousness, of enabling people in general to associate with Krishna by
>> hearing His holy name] with songs full of words set to demoniac music...
>> There is no comparison at all. When a pure devotee chants Hare Krishna
>> Krishna is personally there with all His potencies in the sound vibration.
>> But this straight-edge is just words... There is not even any chanting. I
>> saw one article in alt.music.hardcore where someone was praising the most
>> recent shelter album because there was less than 30 seconds of chanting on
it...
>> >

>> >There was an article in one of the big music magazines that had a picture
>> of Vraja on one side and Srila Prabhupada on the other and in that one
>> member of shelter was quoted as saying something like: "When we are on stage
>> we are concentrating on the lyrics, it is a completely spiritual experience
>> -- in the olden days they would chant Hare Krishna with drums and cymbals,
>> now we sing our songs to the beat of hard-core music -- it is the kirtan for
>> the age..." [I didn't buy the mag -- it is from my memory]
>> >
>> >The point that is lacking in your discussion, and that is understandable,
>> is the necessity of checking all these things with Srila Prabhupada's
>> instructions. Our own speculative ideas on what is good preaching are not
>> very valuable. 108 and shelter are certainly not the first Hare Krishna
>> bands using modern instruments and music styles. The tendency for devotees
>> to want to preach through heavy music has existed since the beginning of the
>> Hare Krishna movement. In fact I have heard one devotee say at one point in
>> the 70's practically every devotee that joined in the US was a musician of
>> sorts wanting to make music "for Krishna". But Srila Prabhupada didn't like
>> it or encourage it. I have already sent you many quotes [in a file I
>> attached to one of my previous messages], but it does not seem to have had
>> any impact. But the most important thing in Krishna consciousness is to
>> follow... it is not to concoct some new unauthorized preaching process. We
>> may not understand why Srila Prabhupada has instructed in a certain way
>> however his vision is far greater than ours so we accept his instructions
>> and follow them.
>> >
>> >It is not that Srila Prabhupada wouldn't take advantage of the
>> straight-edge scene. He took advantage of the hippie scene. But as he didn't
>> want the devotees to become hippies or to become intimately involved in the
>> hippie scene, he also wouldn't want us to become straight-edge or to closely
>> involved in the scene. Prabhupada would preach to them, get them to chant
>> Hare Krishna and hear the Bhagavatam in the traditional way and convert them
>> into Vaisnavas. Then there would be no more straight-edge or demoniac music
>> for them...
>> >
>> >I know the devotees involved in the straight-edge preaching are very
>> sincere souls trying to use their energy for pushing on Srila Prabhupada's
>> movement, however I am convinced these young people [the "fans"] would be
>> MORE attracted to the traditional chanting of Hare Krishna and the
>> traditional recitation of the Bhagavatam and most importantly, the
>> traditional sumptuous Krishna prasadam. Krishna consciousness really is
>> revolutionary and the ideas presented by Srila Prabhupada are very
>> interesting. It just requires us to understand them and present them nicely.
>> >
>> >I read some messages Vraja posted during a 108 tour last year and the thing
>> which struck me most was he was always asking for temples to make prasadam
>> for them... It seems strange to me because, here in Australia at least,
>> almost all the devotees know how to cook. [we have Kurma here - a famous
>> ISKCON cook - and he taught lots of us to cook] Cooking for Krishna is a
>> very important part of Krishna consciousness. I have personally cooked for
>> hundreds of Sunday feasts and preaching programs. A Krishna conscious
>> program is not a dry affair. There is chanting, dancing, philosophy and
>> FEASTING... So we can't have a Krishna conscious program without any of
>> these elements. Of course there is dancing at a straight-edge concert... but
>> it is not the same dancing...
>> >
>> >My suggestion would be that before the next tour 108 all learn how to cook
>> sumptuous Krishna prasadam to Srila Prabhupada's original 12 preparation
>> plus Sunday feast standard and try presenting the standard program of
>> chanting, dancing, philosophy and feasting. The fans will love it... Who can
>> turn down sweet rice, pakoras, gulubs, halva, curd subji, etc... {forget the
>> vegans.. they are in the minority anyhow and they can't avoid eating Krishna
>> prasadam anyhow - I have seen it hundreds of times.)
>> >
>> >The great thing about this style of cooking is you don't need a kitchen.
>> You can cook a prasadam feast anywhere -- even on the side of the road if
>> you have to. You just need a few gas burners [in OZ we buy them from
>> "Barbecues Galore" -- they have really big burners for about $80], some big
>> pots, a big wok, lots of ghee, grains, vegetables and fruit, a cook and some
>> volunteers [which you can requite from the "fans"] to peel and chop the veges.
>> >

>> >So it is a serious suggestion and it could revolutionize the preaching in
>> the US. 108 will become much more famous through this program than by being
>> "just another hard-core band". I think the straight-edge scene is getting a
>> little tired anyhow. This would be revolutionary. Also you have a much
>> bigger target audience. Everyone is attracted by Krishna...
>> >
>> >Here are a few disadvantages of the straight-edge preaching:
>> >
>> >- It is not approved by Srila Prabhupada
>> >- It has created many problems and arguments in ISKCON
>> >- It attracts people indirectly. By a certain style of music, a certain
>> "scene", etc. Not by Krishna.
>> >- Many Straight-edge bhaktas want to continue listening to straight-edge
>> music, going to straight-edge bands, hanging out in the straight-edge scene.
>> They keep the temporary, false designation of "straight-edge" instead of
>> giving up all bodily designations and just becoming a servant of Krishna.
>> >- When the straight-edge bands come to town they stay at the local ISKCON
>> temple and invite the devotees to their shows. This encourages the existing
>> devotees to start hanging out with the straight-edge crowd, going to
>> hardcore shows, etc.
>> >- Naturally the young bhaktas will aspire to follow devotees like Ragunatha
>> and Vraja and become straight-edge stars as well. So they will start their
>> own bands and practice in the brahmacary asrama...
>> >
>> >There are so many other things also.
>> >
>> >Here are some quotes from Srila Prabhupada:
>> >
>> >Letter 72-06-25
>> >        "So far your road-show is concerned, we are not meant
>> >        for giving performances, we are simple kirtana men.
>> >        There must always be kirtana going on wherever we
>> >        travel, and nothing else."
>> >
>> >Letter 72-11-05
>> >        So far the Road Show and this Yoga Village are
>> >        concerned, these things should be stopped. Simply
>> >        perform our kirtana. If we divert our attention in this
>> >        way, the whole thing will gradually deteriorate. He is
>> >        going far away. All these things are nonsense
>> >        inventions. Such inventing spirit will ruin our this
>> >        movement. People may come to see, some will become
>> >        devotees, but such devotees will not stay because they
>> >        are attracted by some show and not by the real thing or
>> >        spiritual life according to the standard of Lord
>> >        Caitanya. Our standard is to have kirtana, start temples.
>> >        What is this ``Road Show'' and ``Yoga Village?'' It will
>> >        be another hippie edition. Gradually the Krishna
>> >        Consciousness idea will evaporate: another change,
>> >        another change, every day another change. Stop all
>> >        this. Simply have kirtana, nothing else. Don't
>> >        manufacture ideas.
>> >
>> >FROM A LETTER BY BHAKTI VIKASA SWAMI
>> >
>> >>Jayadhvaj Maharaj writes:"We can go on quoting Srila Prabhupada forever
>> >>and never come to a conclusion." Why not?
>> >>
>> >>SP has clearly indicated what his opinion is about  initiated devotees
>> >>forming rock bands for preaching. He doesn't like it. How can we ignore,
>> >>discard or sidestep Srila Prabhupada's instructions? When entering this
>> >>discussion I guessed that whatever I wrote would be unlikely to effect
>> >>any drastic changes. But I wanted to create an awareness of what Srila
>> >>Prabhupada said about it among our ISKCON rock stars and fans.
>> >>
>> >>Srila Prabhupada's whole mission was to make devotees. He did whatever
>> >>was needed to bring people to Krishna, and in so doing did many
>> >>innovative things. But in this case he decided that the means did not
>> >>justify the end. He stopped the Road Show, despite its popularity and
>> >>devotee-making potential.

>> >>
>> >>Supporters of ISKCON rock should know this, even if they don't act on
>> >>it. But if you don't think it is even worth considering, what more can I
>> >>say?
>> >>
>> >>Adi-Karta Prabhu told me he was recently at the Rainbow Rock Festival in
>> >>America with a group of devotees. They did khol-kartal kirtan,
>> >>distributed prasada and preached. Result: 14 new recruits. So it seems
>> >>the field is ripe in America and that devotees can be made in the same
>> >>way that they always were.
>> >>
>> >>Vraja Kishor writes:"Actually, the entire world is being subverted by
>> >>our music." The real fact is that entire world culture is being subverted
>> >>by the cumulative effect of years of preaching, book distribution and
>> >>prasadam distribution. Please don't think that you are succeeding where
>> >>the rest of ISKCON failed, or doing something that the standard program
>> >>of Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada couldn't do.
>> >>
>> >>Bhakti Vikasa Swami.
>> >>
>> >
>> >CONCLUSION:
>> >
>> >My presentation is correct and in accord with the teachings of Srila
>> Prabhupada. It may not be to your liking, but it is Prabhupada's
>> instructions. An expert devotee can take advantage of all these things (the
>> hippie movement, the Hindu movement and the straight-edge scene) without
>> becoming a part of their movements and without compromising the principles
>> of Krishna consciousness.
>> >
>> >It is my suggestion that 108 move towards a more traditional Vaisnava type
>> of "concert". They can have responsive kirtana, sing some of the songs of
>> the Viasnava acaryas to traditional instruments and tunes. If it is done
>> very nicely and with real bhakti, love for Krishna and in a mood to please
>> Krishna, it will be revolutionary and extremely popular. Bigger than
>> anything you can imagine. Then they can give a short Bhagavad-gita class,
>> answer questions, have more kirtana, AND SERVE A SUMPTUOUS 12 COURSE+
>> PRASADAM FEAST. and then have more kirtana... It will be ecstatic. Vraja and
>> 108 will become more and more purified and ecstatic and their preaching will
>> become more and more potent AND THERE WILL BE NO MORE ARGUMENTS WITH ISKCON
>> DEVOTEES, everyone will be very pleased to be associated with 108.
>> >
>> >What do you think?
>> >
>> >Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
>> >
>> >Madhudvisa dasa
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>

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