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Three examples how the guru is liberated

• Subject: Three examples how the guru is liberated
• From: Vaisnava das
• Date: Tue Feb 27 07:53:48 1996
• Message-Id: id760

Dear Vaisnava Prabhu



Hello. Hare Krishna! Please accept my humle obeisances. All glories to Srila 

Prabhupada!



Thank you for sending the Srila Prabhupada quotes. Of course it's true that any 

sincere soul can be a guru and it is a very simpe process. One simply has to 

repeat the words of his bona-fide guru and if he is properly situated in 

devotional service, actually following the instructions of his bona fide guru, 

chanting at least 16 rounds, follwing the four regulative principles, fully 

engaged in service under the direction of his bona fide spiritual master then 

his preaching will be very effective and he can act as a guru, even if he is 

not very "advanced". If he is sincere and following the principles and simply 

repeating Srila Prabhupada's words then he will very soon become very advanced. 

Srila Prabhupada referred to his disciples in this position as "pure devotees" 

and a pure devotee is beyond the platform of liberation, more than liberated.



Of course his devotional service may not be completely mature, he may even fall 

from form the proper standards sometimes, I have already quoted the verse:



          api cet su-duracaro

         bhajate mam ananya-bhak

        sadhur eva sa mantavyah

         samyag vyavasito hi sah



     "Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in

devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly

situated in his determination." (Bhagavad-gita 9.30)



     "Therefore a person who is situated in Krsna consciousness and is

engaged with determination in the process of chanting Hare Krsna, Hare

Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare

should be considered to be in the transcendental position, even if by

chance or accident he is found to have fallen. The words sadhur eva, ``he

is saintly,'' are very emphatic. They are a warning to the nondevotees

that because of an accidental falldown a devotee should not be derided; he

should still be considered saintly even if he has accidentally fallen

down. And the word mantavyah is still more emphatic. If one does not

follow this rule, and derides a devotee for his accidental falldown, then

one is disobeying the order of the Supreme Lord. The only qualification of

a devotee is to be unflinchingly and exclusively engaged in devotional

service."



So I have no argument with Srila Prabhupada. I have renamed you letter to 

"Three Examples of how the Guru is Liberated. Prabhupada says he may not be 

perfect, but because he follows his bona fide guru and simply presents the pure 

knowledge as is it is coming down to him through the disciplic succession -- he 

is perfect and liberated.



>I may be imperfect, but because I understand Bhagavad-gita as it

>was understood by Arjuna, I'm perfect.  Because the knowledge I am

>distributing, that is not imperfect. 



So I have said before that even an ordinary, sincere devotee, who has absolute 

faith in his bona fide spiritual master and Krishna is liberated. Of course his 

devotional service may not be completely mature, he may even sometime 

accidently fall from the path. But he is to be considered to be on the 

transcendental platform as he is properly situated, fully engaged in devotional 

service under the direction of his bona fide spiritual master. This was the 

philosophy in ISKCON until a few years ago. The devotees would talk of a man in 

a shower. He may not be completely clean yet -- but he will be [so long as he 

stays in the shower]. Devotees would also talk of the green mango. It may not 

have fully ripened and developed its full swetness and taste -- but it will.



So the qualification is to be fully engaged in Krishna consciousness under the 

direction of a bona fide spiritual master.



   "The only qualification of a devotee is to be unflinchingly and exclusively 

engaged in devotional service."



>A post peon is

>delivering you one-thousand dollars.  So, he may be poor man, but the

>one-thousand dollars he is delivering that is fact.  That is not bogus.

>Because he has not manufacured something.  He has received that money order

>from the post office, he's asked to deliver it to such-and-such person.

>He's honestly...he delievers the money order as-it-is to the bona fide

>person, that is his perfection.  He doesn't require...because he's deliving

>one-thousand dollars, he doesn't require to become a very rich man, he may

>be poor man.  Similarly, a guru.  A guru is perfect when he delivers the

>words of the superior authority as it is, then he's perfect.



You have quoted Srila Prabhupada as saying:

>"Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of eternal associates

>of the Lord, but anyone who follows the principles of such ever-liberated

>persons is as good as one in the above-mentioned group."

>

and used this as your second "proof" that guru doesn't have to be liberated. 

BUT ANYONE WHO FOLLOWS THE PRINCIPLES OF THR EVER-LIBERATED SOULS IS 

LIBERATED!!! And as good as such an ever-liberated soul. This quote DOES NOT 

prover the guru need not be be liberated. It says anyone can become liberated 

by following the principles of the ever-liberated souls and thus become a guru! 

Otherwise why bother to preach? If the conditioned souls can't become liberated 

and join the ever-liberated souls by following their principles there is no 

point. 



Someone who strictly follows the principles of the ever-liberated souls may not 

be completely mature in devotional service yet, but if he is following, and 

just repeating the message the liberated souls have given him he is as good as 

a liberated soul and in due course his devotional service will become 

completely mature and he will join the ever-liberated souls.



So if one honestly receives the knowledge about Krishna from a bona fide 

spiritual master and delivers that message without change he is acting on 

liberated platform. His devotional may not be completely mature, but he is 

acting on the liberated platform...



You third "proof" is:



>In a letter dated April 26, 1968, to Janardana dasa:

>"A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but

>there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act

>as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession."



So as Krishna and Srila Prabhupada have said, if one is properly situated in 

devotional service, following the principles of the ever-liberated souls, even 

though his devotional service may not be completely mature, even though there 

may sometimes be accidental fall-downs he is in the transcendental position.



But all things considered, although such a sincere devotee is on the 

transcendental platform, still one should take initiation from one whose 

devotion service has full matured. One should take initation form an 

uttama-adikari pure devotee.



"In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough 

to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and 

uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not 

try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform.



"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that 

an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many 

fallen souls to Vaisnavism.



"ONE SHOULD NOT BECOME A SPIRITUAL MASTER UNLESS HE HAS ATTAINED THE PLATFORM  OF UTTAMA-ADHIKARI [this is much more than being simply "liberated"!]



"A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can 

also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, AND IT 

SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY CANNOT ADVANCE VERY WELL TOWARD THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF LIFE UNDER HIS INSUFFICIENT GUIDANCE.



"THEREFORE A DISCIPLE SHOULD BE CAREFUL TO ACCEPT AN UTTAMA-ADHIKARI AS A SPIRITUAL MASTER." 



(From Nectar Of Instruction Text 5 Purport by His Divine Grace A.C 

Bhaktivedanta Swami)



This is our philosophy. Srila Prabhupada's books are not contradictory. He has 

repeated this same message through all his books, classes and conversations and 

now ISKCON are trying to establish that the spiritual master doesn't have to be 

liberated!!! It is a great offence to Srila Prabhupada. You are claiming to be 

his followers but you won't accept his instructions!!!



You want to be gurus, just like Prabhupada, but you don't want to become 

liberated like Prabhupada. Of course you can easily become a qualified, 

liberated spiritual master. It is not a very difficult thing. It just requires 

real surrender and service to a real liberated soul. But you don't want to do 

that... Instead you want to be "Spiritual Masters" and also remain 

"non-liberated and independent..." JUST FOLLOW SRILA PRABHUPADA....



Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!



Madhudvisa dasa



At 05:23 AM 26/2/96 -0800, you wrote:



>Madhudvisa prabhu says:

>>But tell them, "The guru doesn't have to be

>>liberated" and they will become a little interested. That means they can be

>>a "guru" and at the same time continue their sex life and all other sinful

>>activities...

>

>Prabhupada says:

>

>(1) Example

>Srila Prabhupada lecture

>Following the Vedic Parampara System

>BBT TAPE MINISTRY #HYD-72-63

>November 30, 1972

>"As Arjuna understood Bhagavad-gita, if we undertand that way, then we are

>perfect.  I may be imperfect, but because I understand Bhagavad-gita as it

>was understood by Arjuna, I'm perfect.  Because the knowledge I am

>distributing, that is not imperfect.  Just like a post peon.  A post peon is

>delivering you one-thousand dollars.  So, he may be poor man, but the

>one-thousand dollars he is delivering that is fact.  That is not bogus.

>Because he has not manufacured something.  He has received that money order

>from the post office, he's asked to deliver it to such-and-such person.

>He's honestly...he delievers the money order as-it-is to the bona fide

>person, that is his perfection.  He doesn't require...because he's deliving

>one-thousand dollars, he doesn't require to become a very rich man, he may

>be poor man.  Similarly, a guru.  A guru is perfect when he delivers the

>words of the superior authority as it is, then he's perfect.  He may be

>imperfect, in your estimation but that is his perfection that he's not

>misleading people by becoming a so-called rascal scholar and interpreting in

>a different way and misleading the whole population.  That is perfection."  

>

>(2) Example

>Source:  Volume 1 Letters from Srila Prabhupada, by SDG

>"Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of eternal associates

>of the Lord, but anyone who follows the principles of such ever-liberated

>persons is as good as one in the above-mentioned group."

>

>(3) Example

>In a letter dated April 26, 1968, to Janardana dasa:

>"A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but

>there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act

>as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession."

>

>Please, if you have any more doubt about the question of the guru not

>necessarily having to be liberated, take the issue up with Prabhupada!

>Thank you.

>

>

>

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