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[sci.astro removed from follow-up] David.Johnson@launchpad.unc.edu (David E. Johnson) wrote: >>Madhudvisa dasa <madhudvisa@krishna.org> wrote: >>[...] >> >>>But science is in big trouble describing the universe! They can't explain >>>it at all! "In the begining there was nothing... and from that nothing >>>came a big bang, caused by no one and energy coming from nowhere... It >>>created all the mass of the universe... it contracted and formed all the >>>planets and set them into motion, all orbiting around the sun [all by an >>>impossibly unlikely coincidence!] And that's not all mind you... Some >>>chemicals mixed themselves up somewhere [once again all by themselves, >>>another impossible and unlikely coincidence...] And, lo and behold, [for >>>the first and perhaps only time :-)] Life was created from matter!!!" >Interesting...so man being "created" from dust IS quite possible and >likely, as the religious side goes? Of course I was describing the "scientific" scenario in a sarcastic way... But we are not dust. Our bodies may be made from dust, that is another thing. I think you will find [although I am not a Bible expert] that man may have been "made from dust" but that God breathed the life into him... So the body is dust but the soul, the life is spiritual and eternal. The soul is not finished when the body is finished... >> >>>So there you have it... The universe according to science... We accept it >>>of course because they have brainwashed us... But it is nonsense. A >>>thoughtful man cannot accept such hopeful ramblings of men desperate to >>>paint God out of the picture at any cost... They can't prove any of it. >And religion is blindly accepted by those who DON'T wish to paint God out >of the picture at any cost. Sounds like religion is ALSO a form of >brainwashing, so what is the difference? No. Not always. Religion is not "blind acceptance". It is a real, tangible thing, it is not quantifiable in material terms, but there is certainly something there. In my case I am a devotee of Lord Sri Krishna and my life has completely changed in so many ways in comparison to my prior life. These are real, measurable changes. You may choose the "religion" of science instead, but it can not be said to be superior by anyone. A purely "scientific" understanding of the universe excluding anything beyond the material elements: earth, water, fire, air and ether [which many scientists don't even understand], leads to the destruction of the finer sentiments, the more subtle things in life. Because one rejects them as unimportant. If there is only matter then our only purpose is to "enjoy" matter... It leads to a hellish world. BTW Science need not be limited to matter as it is currently. Science need not be incompatible with a spiritual world-view. However that is the direction it is taking at the moment. >>>They can't demonstrate any of it in their labs... The whole thing is >>>totally unscientific even by their own standards. And there are very few >>>scientists who are prepared to defend the big bang now... I have tested >>>it. When I confront them they say, "Well it has lots of problems [th BB >>>theory] but of all the theories it's the best one we have..." >Same can be said of religion...when I've queried religious people on items >in the Bible, they were also unable to explain them. Science is supposed to be able to explain things. The put themselves up as authorities, but then when you question them they say, "well no one ever said science was 100% correct..." The Christians may not be able to explain everything clearly, but if they have faith in God that is good. We can explain everything from the Vedic scriptures, that is not a problem. But still there are some Hare Krishna's who are not fully conversant with the knowledge presented in the scriptures. But still they have faith. That is the main thing. Faith in God. You can develop faith in God through a scientific understanding of the universe, through study of the scriptures, or even if you do nothing but just intuitively have faith in God, the end result is the same. > So again, what's the >difference in your argument? From this perspective, both religion and >science stand at about the same level, in regards to the argument you are >trying to make. No. Everything can be explained perfectly logically and consistently from the Vedic texts. Some devotees may not have the knowledge, that is another thing. But science doesn't even claim to be able to do such a thing, they make models that make predictions, that is all... >>>Of course it's not the best one they have. But they don't want to consider >>>the only other one... That there is some intelligence behind the creation >>>of the universe. It is a completely reasonable assumption to make. If we >Why? Because you were taught to make that assumption? What evidence do >you have that there was intelligence involved? >>>look at a very nice new building in the city and I tell you it was created >>>by a "big bang" last night, would you believe me? No. [unless you are >>>crazy of course]. Because the building is there we know there were >>>engineers, buliders, plumbers, electricions, etc... We may not see them, >>>but we know they were there. The "big bang" explanation is completely >>>unreasonable... >And that is because scientists cannot say what was there "before" the big >bang, or where the initial singularity came from? Tell me, where did God >come from? Again, same coin, different side. NONSENSE. You have just avoided the issue. If I show you a big new building in the city and tell you it was created the previous evening by a "big bang" would you believe me? >You have scientists who cannot explain what was "before" the big bang, and >religious people who cannot explain where God came from, and will only say >that he has always existed. Sounds to me like scientists are being a bit >more honest with themselves. At least they are willing to admit their >lack of knowledge in various areas. I'm not talking about religion at all. Even if there was no religion the idea of a "big bang" creating anything worthwhile is crazy nonsense. And as to where God came from, God is eternal, He has no beginning and no end. He is birthless and deathless. We find it difficult to understand because around us we see everything has a beginning and an end so we project that idea onto God. Past, present and future as we conceive of them here don't exist in the spiritual world, there everything is eternally present. Such a concept is beyond the scope of our intelligence to grasp... Yes that is the way it is. >>[deleted about scientists not finding proof for god] >>>Only because they're not looking for it! If I put on a blindfold and walk >>>around and try to prove there is no light... it I convince my friends to >>>wear blindfolds as well... then we have a society of blindfolded people >>>happily believing there is no light... Ignorance is bliss! >Yes, I think that many religions would prefer that their followers ARE >ignorant. Don't ask questions, just believe. No. That is no good. We have to have a sound logical, philosophical and scientific understanding of God. Otherwise how can a thoughtful person have faith in Him. There is nothing we can observe in this material world that is not very logically explained by the Vedic scriptures. It is a very scientific presentation indeed. >>[...] >>>Yes. The universe is also a form of God and real science is also a form of >>>God realization. But many are not really interested in this. They have >>>turned "science" into a dogma that supports the modern atheistic >>>world-view. This is not science and it is not what real scientists are >>>doing, but it is how the atheists are using science to destroy religious >>>people in our society... >Your writing gives the impression that you think the predominant >"position" of the world is atheism. What makes you believe that? I >myself haven't defined what my beliefs are beyond a general sense, so I >won't debate religion other than on an academic level. I won't say that >God doesn't exist, but I like the scientific explanations much better than >just being told to believe. Mostly the people are heading down the path of atheism. Often it is not their own fault. Most people follow others and many "leaders", including science in general, are promoting a godless world-view. This is having the effect of turning the earth into a very uncomfortable place. We are missing the point of human life. The human body is equipped with a brain capable of pondering the more subtle questions such as "Who am I?", "Why am I here?", "What is the purpose of life?" and "Where do I go after death?". But in our society these questions are being replaced by questions concerned with satisfying our base animal desires only: eating, sleeping, sex and defence. This is a great pity. Thank you. Hare Krishna! Madhudvisa dasa (madhudvisa@krishna.org) /sudarsana All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!
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