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The Origin of the Universe

• Subject: The Origin of the Universe
• From: William S
• Date: Mon Jul 03 12:32:02 1995
• Message-Id: id559

>> God can do anything. That is one of His qualities. You can't limit Him to
>> the spiritual world. If He wants He can also create a material world.
>
>Wrong. God cannot do *anything*.

NONSENSE. That is one definition. Omnipotent... It means God can do anything.

> He cannot do anything contrary to his nature.

His nature is spiritual. We are His sons so we have the same spiritual nature. It
is covered, that is all. We are small and He is great, but qualitatively we are
the same. Ultimately the material energy is spiritual also. It is one of the
energies of God. There are unlimited energies of God, but three primary ones:
Spiritual, marginal and material. God is spiritual, matter is material and we are
marginal. THat means we can associate with God in the spiritual world or we can
come here to this material world and associate wit it. Here our original spiritual
nature is covered that's all..

> (Any more than a fish can breathe air.)

You can't compare God to a fish...

>Since His nature is
>spiritual, He cannot create a material universe. *Think* about it!



You think about it... He is all-potent. He can do whatever He wants to. Your crazy
ranting and raving won't stop Him...


>
>God is supposed to be perfect.

God is perfect... That is a fact.

>But the material universe is clearly
>imperfect.

It's exactly the way God created it. It's a frustrating place. You can't be
satisfied here. The idea is we become frustrated and then think of getting out of
this miserable place, going back home, back to Godhead...

>How could a perfect God create something that is either
>imperfect, or starts out perfect and then degenerates? It makes no sense at all

He can do whatever He wants to. That is God. It doesn't have to make sense to you.

> -- a perfect God creating imperfect things. If God knows of
>imperfection, than how can He be God?

God knows everything. He is all-knowing. That is also one of the definitions of
God. But imperfection is actually created by us. It is because we have a little
independence and we have misused that independence. Instead of serving God we are
trying to serve ourselves. That is the imperfection. And God has created this
world for us so we can express that independent desire... He's not imperfect and
this world works exactly the way he wants it to. God doesn't want us to suffer, we
bring suffering upon ourselves. If we sin we generate bad karma and the result is
suffering in the future. That's how this world works...

>
>You take the material universe for granted, then reason from that.

No. We hear what God has to say about it and we accept that. That is the perfect
way of acquiring knowledge.

>Why not
>take God as your starting point, and reason from God's nature?
>

God's nature and our nature is the same, spiritual. He is great and we are small,
that's the only difference.

>> If it [the universe] is nothing then why bother writing to me?
>
>Because I wanted to see if the idea had ever crossed your mind.

But according to you it is all false. I don't exist, you don't exist, the internet
deoesn't exist. Can't you see the flaw in your logic. Why are you bothering with
things that don't exist. You could just kill yourself to save all the bother. Why
not? You don't exist anyhow!

>
>> No. We have accepted God's word for it. It is God's idea not mine. It is
>> you who have twisted things around...
>
>You mean you believe something is God's word because it's written in a
>book? That's like someone blindly defending evolution by quoting Darwin.

We experience God. We don't have blind faith. It's a completely different thing.
If you are very hungry and you sit down to eat a satisfying meal no one has to
tell you you are not hungry anymore. So it's like that. In the beginning, of
course, one has to have some faith in Krishna, but once you start serving Krishna
He reveals Himself to you. You become detached from the material things you were
addicted to and become attached to serving Krishna.

>

>The most-profoundly religious people have NO faith at all! They have
>experienced God directly, and don't need a book to prop up their beliefs.

We have gone past the point of faith. We know Krishna, we can see Krishna. It's
not faith. It's the Absolute Truth.

>
>Another question. If the soul is alive, what does it need a body for?
It doesn't need a body. Have you ever heard of ghosts? They are souls without a
material body.

>Since
>(from your point of view) matter is not alive, what is the point of >giving it
life?

You can't "give matter life". Matter and life are two completely different things.
Life is spiritual. When something is "alive" in a material body it undergoes
changes. It is born, it changes, it produces byproducts (children, fruit, flowers,
etc), it dwindles and gradually dissapears. These changes are brought about by the
presence of the soul in matter. You can not show that matter can produce life.
Life comes from life. That is a clearly observable fact. So ultimately the
original cause of everything is a person, the Supreme Person, God. This is the
logical conclusion. We see everywhere children coming from their parents. We don't
ever see them coming from matter. So to understand the source of everything is
also a person, life is not very difficult.

>What purpose does that serve? Why does God *need* to create a
>material universe that is so obviously utterly contrary to His basic
>nature? I'd like a straight, logical answer to this. (Don't go quoting your
>book. I want you to think it through.)

He has created it so we can come here and express our desire to become
controllers. We want to become God... But that is a disease. We are not God. So
Krishna creates the material world to simultaneously give us the chance to "lord
it over matter" and also to frustrate us... So ultimately, after many, many
births, we will be able to see the futility of trying to be happy by satisfying
our bodies... No matter how much money we get, no matter how many nice women we
have sex with, no matter how powerful we become... we cannot be happy in the
material world. That is the nature of this place. That is the way Krishna has
designed it...

>I wish I could find the quote, but someone once said that every time God
>created a physical law, He diminished His own power.

It was said by someone who doesn't understand God or why he created the material
world!

>
>Physical laws seem to operate independently of God. (Humor me on this.

Yes. God has created this universe as a self-contained unit. It is in that sense
independent.

>If it were not generally so, how would we be able to predict the weather with
>a fair (sometimes turning cloudy -- ar, ar) degree of accuracy?)

My experience is the opposite! I have not seen very accurate weather predictions
at all. Of course if you say "it will be sunny" in the middle of summer you will
probably be right... And they watch with their satellites to see where the wind is
blowing the clouds. But overall they are not very accurate. They can't predict
earthquakes and so many natural phenomea. We are at the mercy of nature. Science
can't predict or control nature. A big wave, heavy rain, an earthquake, etc, etc..
They can't control it, nor can they predict it...

> If that's  the case,

That's certainly not the case! Science cannot reliably predict nature and they
certainly can't control it..

>then God's creation of physical law means that He has ordained a

>power outside Himself,

Yes. He has many servants, the demigods. They manage the affairs of the material
world. He has no business to come here personally. His servants are quite
competent to manage things. But still sometimes He comes here or sends His son
[like Lord Jesus Christ] to reestablish the religious principles. That is His
independence. He doesn't have to come here, but if He wants to He can... No one
can stop God from doing what He wants to. Certainly not you!

>thus nullifying his omnipotence. It's utterly
>ridiculous.

You can't understand it, that's all. It's your problem. God is omnipotent. He is
simultaneously everywhere, even within the atom and also He is in the spiritual
world far, far away... These subject matters are a little subtle. But you are just
jumping up and down and spouting our illogical nonsense. I think you are just a
"fanatically religious" atheist... You have no basis for your "philosophy".
.Actually you have no "philosophy". You say everything is false... Nothing
exists... So for crying out loud, "Why bother..."

>
>Sorry, but you've swallowed whole something you read in a book, WITHOUT
>THINKING ABOUT IT.

I think you can see I have thought about it quite deeply.

>You will never understand the spiritual nature of things
>by taking materiality as your starting point.

Yes. Somehow you have written something that is perfectly correct. You can't
understand the Absolute Truth, God through matter. You have to find someone who
knows about God, who has heard from a proper authority about God, and hear from
him. It is called accepting a spiritual master. That is the process. Of course now
there are so many cheating spiritual masters so it can be quite difficult to find
the real thing... Still just because there is some counterfeit money in the market
doesn't mean real money doesn't exist...

>
>You cannot argue with someone just by saying that what they say "isn't so
>-- I read it in a book." If God created humankind, how can our power of
>reason (presumably God-given) be a block to understanding Him? It can't.

It can be used both to prove God and to "disprove" God. But you can't "prove" or
"disprove" God in this way. He is beyond the material world and your "power of
reason". Your "power of reason" is very small... You base everything on
information you gather through your senses and it is all imperfect, you have a
tendency to cheat, you are illusioned  [accepting some things as fact when they
are not] and you make mistakes. All knowledge generated by the speculative process
is flawed because of this.

>
>If instead of assuming the material universe is real, why not start with
>God, and ask yourself this: "God is infinite, perfect, and spiritual. What
>kind of universe would an infinite, perfect, and spiritual God create?"

You have to find out about that form God don't you? You have no idea what He had
in mind for this place. It is not meant to be a "perfect" place. It is meant to be
a frustrating place. And God did a perfectly good job of creating exactly what He
wanted to. He's not worried about what you think!

>
>When you ask this question -- and start thinking about the answer -- you
>will have a better understanding of God, man, and their relationship.
>
>Put down your book and start THINKING.
>

Rather it would be better if you take up the Bhagavad-gita as it is and start
reading it... You may recover from the "world doesn't exist" syndrome yet...

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