email@example.com (Marian Cummins) wrote: >In article <firstname.lastname@example.org>, email@example.com says... >> Personally, I want to use my life for things which have a permanent >> effect and I don't want to come back to the material world again. (it's >> not really a very nice place) >Oh, Madhudvisa, how sorry I feel for thee! Whatever God/Krishna is, >'he' created this world for 'his' delight, and ours. Currently it may >not be as we would wish - but that is at least partly our own ignorance >and lack of understanding of 'his' purpose - but oh, yes,! it _is_ a >'nice' place - more - it is a wonderful place! Wishful thinking! "He created a delight...currently it may not be what we like..." He actually created something frustrating for a good reason. There is a hint of 'delight' here but the substance is somewhat difficult to grasp. In India the example of sugar-cane is given. Sugar-cane is very sweet and if I chew on it I enjoy an nice taste. But if I discard the sugar-cane on the road and someone else picks it up and chews it, he will not be able to get the sweet taste, because the juce has already been extracted. This world is compared to the chewed sugar-cane. The actual pleasurable substance is not here. Another example is: sometimes you can see a big lake in the middle of a desert. A thoughtful person knows, however, there is no water in the desert, it's a mirage only. But sometimes a thirsty animal in the desert sees the water and runs towards it. Little does he know he is running into the center of the desert! We are "chewing what has already been chewed" here. There is no substance, no real pleasure: matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram punah punas carvita-carvananam "Because of their uncontrolled senses, persons too addicted to materialistic life make progress towards hellish conditions and repeatedly chew that which has already been chewed. Their inclinations toward Krishna are never aroused, either by the instructions of others, or by their own efforts, or by a combination of both." >What is this 'self'ishness that requires that you: >a) leave the material world, and be blowed whether the rest of mankind follows as long as you're ok? No. A devotee is not in the material world. I said I don't want to come back here but a real devotee is already liberated. Although he is here, his consciousness is in the spiritual world. He doesn't even mind going to hell - to him it is Vikuntha (the spiritual world) because he continues to serve Krishna there. Such a devotee is VERY concerned for others: "My Dear Lord Nrsimhadeva, I see that there are many saintly persons indeed, but they are interested in their own deliverance. Not caring for the big cities and towns, they go to the Himalayas or the forest to meditate with vows of silence (mauna-vrata). They are not interested in delivering others. As for me, however, I do not wish to be liberated alone, leaving aside all these poor fools and rascals. I know that without Krishna consciousness, without taking shelter of Your lotus feet, one cannot be happy. Therefore I wish to bring them back to shelter at Your lotus feet." (Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.44 Prahlada Maharaja to Lord Nrsimhadeva) >b) be happy - happy to me is a trivial emotion - if you really mean > 'bliss' firstly why not say so and secondly surely that will require more > than someone chanting - what about helping others along the path/way? Blissful and happy are not so different. Of course we see "happy" people dancing in the disco's and on the TV commercials so perhaps you have a point. Blissful might be a better word... Actually chanting Hare Krishna is VERY powerful and nothing else is required. nama cintamanih krsnas caitanya-rasa-vigrahah purnah suddho nitya-mukto 'bhinnatvan nama-naminoh "The holy name of Krishna is transcendentally blissful. It bestows all spiritual benedictions, for it is Krishna Himself, the reservoir of pleasure. Krishna's name is complete, and it is the form of all transcendental mellows. It is not a material name under any condition, and it is no less powerful than Krishna Himself. Since Krishna's name is not contaminated by the material qualities, and there is no question of it being involved with maya, Krishna's name is always liberated and spiritual; it is never conditioned by the laws of material nature. This is because the name of Krishna and Krishna Himself are Identical" (Padma Purana) >As for the Mandelbrot stuff -are you really just meaning some >mathematical iteration - have you read the work of Rudy Rucker? (eg Mind >Tools) - I'm just wondering if you just have rather oversimplistic >understanding? No. Mandelbrot's whole idea is it is simple. Simple mathematical relationships can generate what appear to be fairly complex systems. >I'm no mathematician, far from it, but it seems you may be extrapolating >from a minimal understanding to oversimplistic 'explanation' here and >elsewhere in the thread. See above. >(another such oversimplification would be the equation of life with >spirit - life is an extension arising out of the 'natural' processes of >matter Not acording to the Vedas... They are completely different. (Eveyone who follows the Vedas accepts the distinction between matter/spirit no matter what their interpretation) isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy." (Bhagavad-gita 18.61) So it is clear the body is a "machine made of the material energy" and the soul is "seated on" that machine as a driver sits inside a motorcar and controls it. Life is not an "extension of matter" it is something completely different. >but spirit is a 'higher' function - even the Vedas speak of >more levels, I'm pretty sure - can't quote offhand as no text on hand, It's better to quote. The Vedic process is one of accepting the authority of the Vedas so in presenting the philosophy you have to support your statements with authoritative quotations. >but approximately equivalent of matter, life, mind, soul, spirit, and >the One/All/God whatever, the multi-deities (for those of us who wisyh >to acknowledge these) being at the spirit level, and our inner >'individual' spiritness being at level of soul. This is rather vague. You have touched on many issues here, we could talk about it for a long time... but. Krishna has three principal energies: visnu-shaktih para prokta ksetrajnakhya tatha para avidya-karma-samjnanya trtiya saktir isyate "Originally, Krishna's energy is spiritual, and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However there is another energy known as illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lords third potency." So Krishna and we are both spiritual, qualitatively equal but quantitatively different, He is unlimited and we are limited. But matter and so-called happiness within the material world are part of Krishna's third energy - illusion. As far as the "All is one" idea that is not our philosophy. This world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world so the individuality and varegatedness we see here is a reflection of the original spiritual individuality and varegatedness in the spiritual world... As for "Multi-Deities" all followers of the Vedas accept all the Deities exist, however, there is some disagreement over who is supreme. Some say they are all equal... But the version of the Vedas is: ete camsa-kalah pumsam krsnas tu bhagavan svyam indrari-vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge "All the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Sri Krishna is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists." (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.1.45) This verse establishes Krishna's exalted position among the incarnations of Vishnu (Vishnu is an incarnation of Krishna not the other way around.) Sometimes people even equate the demigods (Lord Brahma, Lord Indra, etc.) with Krishna. This is condemned in the Bhagavad-gita (7.20): kamais tais hrta-jnanah prapadyante 'nya-devatah tam tam niyamam asthaya prakrtya niyatah svaya "Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures." >And most of us can at >least experience level above mind - all you have to do is sit quietly >for a while and notice thought arising - then start to watch from >whence they arise - who is it that's doing the watching... >etc... This is very intelligent. Most people are too busy to notice the arguments going on in their head! Who is arguing with who? The mind, the intelligence and the soul are three different levels. A transcendentalist controls his mind with his intelligence and a materialist's mind and intelligence are controlled by his senses, by lust for objects and to satisfy the senses. >_Who_ asks the question who am I, intuits the truth of the answer (Feels >right - feels wrong)- beyond thought therefor beyond 'mind', etc... These questions are raised when we come to the human platform. Animals are concerned with eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. If in the human body we only concern ourselves with the same eating, the same sex life, etc., we are no better than animals.. The Vedas says "dwipada pasu" "two-legged animals" Thank you very much. Hare Krishna. Thank you. Hare Krishna! Madhudvisa dasa (firstname.lastname@example.org) /sudarsana All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!