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Dear Marian,
mcummins@netspace.net.au (Marian Cummins) wrote:
>In article <3pjk7p$t9@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au>, madhudvisa@krishna.org says much to
>answer my last post, and has done so for all the people who have responded to
>his original.
>Madhudvisa, (or am I supposed to address you as Swami?)
>I thank you for the considered and detailed attention which you have given to
>each.
You can call me either. Whatever you like. Madhudvisha is nice because
it is Krishna's name. It means Krishna, the killer of the Madhu demon.
So I am Madhudvisa dasa, dasa meand servant, so "servant of Krishna
who killed the Madhu demon". Swami means one who has controlled his
senses and it refers to someone in the renounced order of life.
>There are points of contention but it seems to me that what we should be
>concentrating on is our similarities, not our differences. (So I admit my own
>culpablility in my first response !) (yes that's supposed to be a wink ;) so's
>that:)
Yes I agree. We are all looking at the same thing from different angles
[even the scientists!]. It's always difficult to get started talking
with new people from different backgrounds and traditions but there is
lots of common ground among all "seekers of the truth".
>If people can agree on the underlying truth of all their 'faiths' then it
>is easier to tolerate, to accept as differences built in to the wonderful
>complexity of the manifestastions of creation - albeit based - yes, I
>agree - on what are likely to be very simple principles.
Yes. The differences are superficial. But there is a class of people
who want to create different groups for their own purposes... that is
why we have so many religious groups. But really everyone is trying to
reestablish their relationship with God. Some may say Brahman, some say
Jesus, some Krishna, some Allah, but there is a common thread running
through them all. They all accept the existence of the soul, a
spiritual particle within the body who is eternal, who will continue to
exist after the body is long gone. They all recommend living this life
not just for the pleasure of the moment but to advance spiritually so
after this body is finished we can reestablish our relationship with
God.
>( The current world I live in - including the material _and_ the
>spiritual - is indeed gloriously wonderful - I do feel sorry that you do
>not find it so!)
I see beauty and wonder in this world too. Krishna says in the
Bhagavad-gita: (10.41)
yad yad vibhutimat sattvam srimad urjitam eva va
tat tad evavagaccha tvam mama tejo-'msa-sambhavam
"Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but
a spark of My splendor."
So when I see beauty I see it as a small manifestation of Krishna's
opulences, of Krishna's beauty. He's unlimited of course, but the
manifestations of beauty in this world can give us some idea...
If you read the tenth chapter of the Bhagavad-gita, it is called
"Vibhuti Yoga" or "The Oppulence of the Absolute" you will find Krishna
explains His beauty and opulence in terms of things in this world (I am
the taste of water, the light of ths Sun and the Moon, the sylible
OM...) The whole chapter is very interesting reading.
(But I don't accept this world as permanent. I am not miserable [I
chant Hare Krishna!] but there is a lot of misery here. It would be
hard to ignore the famines, the disease, the old age...)
>Really for example I think when you talk of Krishna you mean the same as
>I when I talk of God, or That, or Truth, or Reality (ha, I hear you
>preparing to dipute, no? - hold for a bit!) or others of Allah, etc. Bit
>hazy still, but I think Brahman is also That?
Yes, like I said before we're all looking at the same person but from
different angles of vision:
vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate
"Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this
non-dual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan." (Srimad Bhagavatam
1.2.11)
So there are three ways of seeing the supreme. Brahman means perceiving
an all-pervading spiritual energy and liberation for such
transcendentalists is becoming one with or merging with the "supreme
oneness".
The next level of realization is the one possible through yoga and
meditation. The perfect yogis come to the stage of Paramatma
realization. We, the soul, the living entity are called the "atma" but
there are two entities within our heart. We, the atma, are there but
Krishna in His four-armed Visnu form is also there. He is called the
"Param-atma" or the supreme atma. The yogis can come to the point of
seeing the Paramatma within their hearts.
The final realization is of Bhagavan. Bhagavan literally means "the
possessor af all opulences". Bhagavan refers to a person, the supreme
person, and the other two energies [Brahman and Paramatma] are
emanating from His body.
The analogy of the sun and the sunshine is often given. Seeing the
sunshine is like Brahman realization, seeing the sun is like Paramatma
realization and actually entering the sun planet and meeting the sun
god is like Bhagavan realization. As the light of the sun disc and the
sunshine are coming from the body of the sun-god so the Brahman and
Paramatma emanate from the body of Bhagavan [Vishnu or Krishna]
>So I for one would like to continue this thread in a spirit of loving enquiry
>rather than refutation (as much as possible ;)
>So my question is now - could you please discriminate in detail for me between
>mind
>intelligence
>spirit
>and I think there was a fourth, but can't recall it...
This is a very nice question. The third chapter of Bhagavad-gita is the
place to look for the answer...(Bhagavad-gita 3.42)
indriyani parany ahur indriyebhyah param manah
manasas tu para buddhir yo buddheh paratas tu sah
"The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the
senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind and he [the soul] is
even higher than the intelligence."
So there are five things: matter, the senses, the mind, the
intelligence and the soul. For a materialist his motivation starts at
the bottom, he looks to matter to satisfy his senses, he's controlled
by the demands of his senses. The tongue says to the mind, "get food",
the mind says to the intelligence, "get food" and the poor spirit soul
is more or less just sitting there watching the whole thing going on.
A transcendentalist, on the other hand uses his [or her - but really
we are not the body; the soul is not male or female... It depends on the
body it is in] intelligence for spiritual pursuits and he controls his
mind with his intelligence. So he, the spirit-soul is actually in
control.
You can see from this that a materialist is not actually free. His
senses are demanding satisfaction and the mind and intelligence are
working to provide that sense gratification. The example is given of
the driver of a carriage with the horses out of control... not very
comfortable!
There is much more detail available but I'm interested in what you
think so far. Perhaps we can build on it in future postings?
>And if you'd care to clarifiy on the various names, that would be helpful too -
>lets forget the lesser deities for the present as they can certainly be
>red-herrings....:)
Yes. Very simply there is God, the Supreme Person. His name is Krishna
and also Vishnu [and many other names as well]. He is one person but He
appears in different forms for different purposes.
There are three modes of nature goodness, passion and ignorence and
each mode has a person in charge of it. Goodness means maintenance and
Visnu is in charge of this. Then there is Shiva. Shiva is in charge of
the mode of ignorence [destruction]. Shiva is in a special position.
Although he is not equal with Vishnu, he is not an ordinary living
entity like us. He is between us and Vishnu. Then there is Lord Brahma
looking after the mode of passion [creation]. Lord Brahma is generally
a very qualified ordinary living entity. You or I could become a Lord
Brahma... It's something like the prime minister. Any qualified person
could take the position.
There is only one supreme God [Vishnu or Krishna] but there are
33,000,000 demigods! The demigods, with the exception of Lord Shiva,
are all ordinary living entities like yourself or myself. They are
devotees but they still desire to enjoy in the material world so they
are promoted to a higher planet [heaven] where things are better than
here [longer life, not so much disease, better weather...] and given
some responsible position within the universal management.
The Vedic understanding is everything is working under the direction of
a person... Things don't just happen by themselves. Even the blinking
of our eyelids, somebody is looking after it, making sure it is going
alright. [I'm not doing it...]
Krishna [in Bhagavad-gita] doesn't recommend worshiping the demigods
separately. He gives the example of supplying water to the roots of a
tree. If you water the roots the whole tree is satisfied, all the
leaves, all the fruit, the flowers, the branches... So if you just
serve Vishnu or Krishna everyone else is automatically satisfied.
But some people in India do worship the demigods separately...
>And as for Mandelbrot - I think the thing I was suggesting is that you were
>talking about fractals in general rather than Mandelbrot. Certainly fractals,
>and chaos theory seem to me to be very relevant, and I do not wish to dispute
>the underlying truths of what you proposed. Again, I urge you to read Rudy
>Rucker's Mind Tools (Penguin, c. 1987, I think).
>Of course, I don't know your scientific or math background so my apologies if I
>am telling my grandfather to suck eggs!
I'm not so interested in his ideas. I went to a lecture he gave at the
ANU and heard what he had to say and read one of his books and his
ideas were just convenient for my example so I used them..
>Do ISKCON followers also acknowledge the Upanishads as accurate?
Yes. There are 108 Upanishads and they are authorized Vedic scriptures.
We like Isopanisad very much because it describes the personal aspects
of God. Most of them concentrate mainly on Brahman, but Brahman is the
energy of Krishna, another way of looking at Krishna.
>How literally do you take the Gita? To me it seems to be allegory/metaphor and
>then indeed very powerful.
No. We take it literally. It is the transcript of an actual
conversation that took place 5,000 years ago on the battlefield of
Kuruksetra between Krishna and Arjuna. Krishna was driving the chariot
for Arjuna and He parked the chariot between the two armies just before
the battle so Arjuna could see the strength of both armies. But when
Arjuna saw so many friends and relatives on both sides he became
bewildered and said to Krishna, "Krishna I can no fight." Then Krishna
spoke the Bhagavad-gita.
>Could you possibly add dates of source-written/'publication' to your quotes - I
>am not familiar enough with the texts you quote (and certainly have no
>Sanskrit!) to know who the various sages were/are.
Mainly I am quoting from "Bhagavad-gita As It Is" and "Srimad
Bhagavatam" both translated by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta
Swami Prabhupada published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust 1972-1977.
Bhagavad-gita is very well known even in the West. It is small [711
verses] and contains the essence of all spiritual knowledge. Everything
is there. You can become completely self realized by reading
Bhagavad-gita As It Is [there are lots of nonsense commentaries which
will not help much though... Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita is
accepted by almost all authorities in India and the West as the best
English translation]
Srimad Bhagavatam is much bigger [18,000 verses] and contains lots of
details. It is described as the "Ripened fruit of the desire tree of
Vedic knowledge". It was written by Srila Vyasadeva [who also wrote
down all the other Vedic scriptures] but it was his final work. It
contains the highest spiritual knowledge.
Thank you for the questions. Looking forward to your reply. Hare Krishna.
Thank you. Hare Krishna!
Madhudvisa dasa
(madhudvisa@krishna.org) /sudarsana
All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!
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