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Re: WHEN THE UNIVERSE WAS DARK...(Marain's Thread) (Marian Cummins) wrote:

>In article <3pgqlg$>, says...

>>  Personally, I want to use my life for things which have a permanent
>>  effect and I don't want to come back to the material world again. (it's
>>  not really a very nice place)

>Oh, Madhudvisa, how sorry I feel for thee! Whatever God/Krishna is,
>'he' created this world for 'his' delight, and ours. Currently it may
>not be as we would wish - but that is at least partly our own ignorance
>and lack of understanding of 'his' purpose - but oh, yes,! it _is_ a
>'nice' place - more - it is a wonderful place!

  Wishful thinking! "He created a delight...currently it may not be what
  we like..."

  He actually created something frustrating for a good reason. There is a
  hint of 'delight' here but the substance is somewhat difficult to
  grasp. In India the example of sugar-cane is given. Sugar-cane is very
  sweet and if I chew on it I enjoy an nice taste. But if I discard the
  sugar-cane on the road and someone else picks it up and chews it, he
  will not be able to get the sweet taste, because the juce has already 
  been extracted. This world is compared to the chewed sugar-cane. The
  actual pleasurable substance is not here. Another example is: sometimes
  you can see a big lake in the middle of a desert. A thoughtful person
  knows, however, there is no water in the desert, it's a mirage only. 
  But sometimes a thirsty animal in the desert sees the water and runs
  towards it. Little does he know he is running into the center of the

  We are "chewing what has already been chewed" here. There is no
  substance, no real pleasure:

        matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam
        adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram punah punas carvita-carvananam

"Because of their uncontrolled senses, persons too addicted to
materialistic life make progress towards hellish conditions and
repeatedly chew that which has already been chewed. Their inclinations
toward Krishna are never aroused, either by the instructions of others,
or by their own efforts, or by a combination of both."

>What is this 'self'ishness that requires that you:

>a) leave the material world, and be blowed whether the rest of mankind
 follows as long as you're ok?

  No. A devotee is not in the material world. I said I don't want to come
  back here but a real devotee is already liberated. Although he is here,
  his consciousness is in the spiritual world. He doesn't even mind going
  to hell - to him it is Vikuntha (the spiritual world) because he
  continues to serve Krishna there. Such a devotee is VERY concerned for

"My Dear Lord Nrsimhadeva, I see that there are many saintly persons
indeed, but they are interested in their own deliverance. Not caring for
the big cities and towns, they go to the Himalayas or the forest to
meditate with vows of silence (mauna-vrata). They are not interested in
delivering others. As for me, however, I do not wish to be liberated
alone, leaving aside all these poor fools and rascals. I know that
without Krishna consciousness, without taking shelter of Your lotus feet,
one cannot be happy. Therefore I wish to bring them back to shelter at
Your lotus feet." (Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.44 Prahlada Maharaja to Lord

>b) be happy - happy to me is a trivial emotion - if you really mean
>   'bliss' firstly why not say so and secondly surely that will require more
>   than someone chanting - what about helping others along the path/way?

  Blissful and happy are not so different. Of course we see "happy"
  people dancing in the disco's and on the TV commercials so perhaps you
  have a point. Blissful might be a better word...

  Actually chanting Hare Krishna is VERY powerful and nothing else is

           nama cintamanih krsnas caitanya-rasa-vigrahah
           purnah suddho nitya-mukto 'bhinnatvan nama-naminoh

"The holy name of Krishna is transcendentally blissful. It bestows all
spiritual benedictions, for it is Krishna Himself, the reservoir of
pleasure. Krishna's name is complete, and it is the form of all
transcendental mellows. It is not a material name under any condition,
and it is no less powerful than Krishna Himself. Since Krishna's name is
not contaminated by the material qualities, and there is no question of
it being involved with maya, Krishna's name is always liberated and
spiritual; it is never conditioned by the laws of material nature. This
is because the name of Krishna and Krishna Himself are Identical" (Padma

>As for the Mandelbrot stuff -are you really just meaning some
>mathematical iteration - have you read the work of Rudy Rucker? (eg Mind
>Tools) - I'm just wondering if you just have rather oversimplistic

  No. Mandelbrot's whole idea is it is simple. Simple mathematical
  relationships can generate what appear to be fairly complex systems.

>I'm no mathematician, far from it, but it seems you may be extrapolating
>from a minimal understanding to oversimplistic 'explanation' here and
>elsewhere in the thread.

  See above.

>(another such oversimplification would be the equation of life with
>spirit - life is an extension arising out of the 'natural' processes of

  Not acording to the Vedas... They are completely different. (Eveyone
  who follows the Vedas accepts the distinction between matter/spirit no
  matter what their interpretation)

        isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
        bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya

"The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is
directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a
machine made of the material energy." (Bhagavad-gita 18.61)

  So it is clear the body is a "machine made of the material energy" and
  the soul is "seated on" that machine as a driver sits inside a motorcar
  and controls it. Life is not an "extension of matter" it is something
  completely different.

>but spirit is a 'higher' function  - even the Vedas speak of
>more levels, I'm pretty sure - can't quote offhand as no text on hand,

  It's better to quote. The Vedic process is one of accepting the
  authority of the Vedas so in presenting the philosophy you have to
  support your statements with authoritative quotations.

>but approximately equivalent of matter, life, mind, soul, spirit, and
>the One/All/God whatever, the multi-deities (for those of us who wisyh
>to acknowledge these) being at the spirit level, and our inner
>'individual' spiritness being at level of soul.

  This is rather vague. You have touched on many issues here, we could
  talk about it for a long time... but. Krishna has three principal

     visnu-shaktih para prokta ksetrajnakhya tatha para
        avidya-karma-samjnanya trtiya saktir isyate

"Originally, Krishna's energy is spiritual, and the energy known as the
living entity is also spiritual. However there is another energy known as
illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lords third

  So Krishna and we are both spiritual, qualitatively equal but
  quantitatively different, He is unlimited and we are limited. But
  matter and so-called happiness within the material world are part of
  Krishna's third energy - illusion.

  As far as the "All is one" idea that is not our philosophy. This world
  is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world so the individuality
  and varegatedness we see here is a reflection of the original spiritual
  individuality and varegatedness in the spiritual world...

  As for "Multi-Deities" all followers of the Vedas accept all the
  Deities exist, however, there is some disagreement over who is supreme.
  Some say they are all equal... But the version of the Vedas is:

        ete camsa-kalah pumsam krsnas tu bhagavan svyam
          indrari-vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge

"All the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or
portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Sri Krishna is the
original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever
there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to
protect the theists."  (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.1.45)

  This verse establishes Krishna's exalted position among the
  incarnations of Vishnu (Vishnu is an incarnation of Krishna not the
  other way around.) Sometimes people even equate the demigods (Lord
  Brahma, Lord Indra, etc.) with Krishna. This is condemned in the
  Bhagavad-gita (7.20):

        kamais tais hrta-jnanah prapadyante 'nya-devatah
        tam tam niyamam asthaya prakrtya niyatah svaya

"Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender
unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship
according to their own natures."

>And most of us can at
>least experience level above mind - all you have to do is sit quietly
>for a while and notice thought arising - then start to watch from
>whence they arise - who is it that's doing the watching...  >etc...

  This is very intelligent. Most people are too busy to notice the
  arguments going on in their head! Who is arguing with who? The mind,
  the intelligence and the soul are three different levels. A
  transcendentalist controls his mind with his intelligence and a
  materialist's mind and intelligence are controlled by his senses, by
  lust for objects and to satisfy the senses.

>_Who_ asks the question who am I, intuits the truth of the answer (Feels
>right - feels wrong)- beyond thought therefor beyond 'mind',  etc...

  These questions are raised when we come to the human platform. Animals
  are concerned with eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. If in the
  human body we only concern ourselves with the same eating, the same sex
  life, etc., we are no better than animals.. The Vedas says "dwipada
  pasu" "two-legged animals"

Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.

Thank you. Hare Krishna!

Madhudvisa dasa       
(     /sudarsana 
All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!

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