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madhudvisa@krishna.org (Madhudvisa dasa ) wrote:
>Madhudvisa,
>For some reason this still has not appeared in my newreader so I reply as
>email - feel free to put totality back in newsgroup if you can - I don't
>seem to be able to do this for some resaon known only to the computer's
>innards :)
>In aus.religion, madhudvisa@krishna.org (Madhudvisa dasa ) wrote:
>>> You can call me either. Whatever you like. Madhudvisha is nice because
>>> it is Krishna's name. It means Krishna, the killer of the Madhu demon.
>>> So I am Madhudvisa dasa, dasa meand servant, so "servant of Krishna
>>> who killed the Madhu demon". Swami means one who has controlled his
>>> senses and it refers to someone in the renounced order of life.
>Please explain more about the conferring of the title Swami - how, how
>identified, by whom etc....
>I assume dasa and das have the same origin and effective meaning?
>>> Yes. The differences are superficial. But there is a class of people
>>> who want to create different groups for their own purposes... that is
>>> why we have so many religious groups. But really everyone is trying to
>>> reestablish their relationship with God. Some may say Brahman, some say
>>> Jesus, some Krishna, some Allah, but there is a common thread running
>>> through them all. They all accept the existence of the soul, a
>>> spiritual particle within the body who is eternal, who will continue to
>>> exist after the body is long gone. They all recommend living this life
>>> not just for the pleasure of the moment but to advance spiritually so
>>> after this body is finished we can reestablish our relationship with
>>> God.
>D'accord!
>>> I see beauty and wonder in this world too. Krishna says in the
>>> Bhagavad-gita: (10.41)
>>
>>> yad yad vibhutimat sattvam srimad urjitam eva va
>>> tat tad evavagaccha tvam mama tejo-'msa-sambhavam
>>
>>>"Know that all opulent, beautiful and glorious creations spring from but
>>>a spark of My splendor."
>>
>>> So when I see beauty I see it as a small manifestation of Krishna's
>>> opulences, of Krishna's beauty. He's unlimited of course, but the
>>> manifestations of beauty in this world can give us some idea...
>absolutely in agreement - our point of difference is in that which you
>regard as 'not beautiful' I think...
>>
>>> If you read the tenth chapter of the Bhagavad-gita, it is called
>>> "Vibhuti Yoga" or "The Oppulence of the Absolute" you will find Krishna
>>> explains His beauty and opulence in terms of things in this world (I am
>>> the taste of water, the light of ths Sun and the Moon, the sylible
>>> OM...) The whole chapter is very interesting reading.
>will do - not that familiar with it. Will return to the discussion of this
>text and how we probably read it from somewhat different perspectives
>sometime, heh?
>>
>>> (But I don't accept this world as permanent. I am not miserable [I
>>> chant Hare Krishna!] but there is a lot of misery here. It would be
>>> hard to ignore the famines, the disease, the old age...)
>Again absolutely, but for me this is still part of the creation - a facte, a
>manifestation, as real as the spirit, but one which we mere mortals do not
>understand rather than which we should 'wipe'. Again this leads to your and
>my conception of karma - ha! we'll get to that pretty soon but not today - I
>at least need to take things simply and tackle one thing at a time...
>>>"Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this
>>>non-dual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan." (Srimad Bhagavatam
>>>1.2.11)
>>
>>> So there are three ways of seeing the supreme. Brahman means perceiving
>>> an all-pervading spiritual energy and liberation for such
>>> transcendentalists is becoming one with or merging with the "supreme
>>> oneness".
>>
>>> The next level of realization is the one possible through yoga and
>>> meditation. The perfect yogis come to the stage of Paramatma
>>> realization. We, the soul, the living entity are called the "atma" but
>>> there are two entities within our heart. We, the atma, are there but
>>> Krishna in His four-armed Visnu form is also there. He is called the
>>> "Param-atma" or the supreme atma. The yogis can come to the point of
>>> seeing the Paramatma within their hearts.
>>
>>> The final realization is of Bhagavan. Bhagavan literally means "the
>>> possessor af all opulences". Bhagavan refers to a person, the supreme
>>> person, and the other two energies [Brahman and Paramatma] are
>>> emanating from His body.
>>
>>> The analogy of the sun and the sunshine is often given. Seeing the
>>> sunshine is like Brahman realization, seeing the sun is like Paramatma
>>> realization and actually entering the sun planet and meeting the sun
>>> god is like Bhagavan realization. As the light of the sun disc and the
>>> sunshine are coming from the body of the sun-god so the Brahman and
>>> Paramatma emanate from the body of Bhagavan [Vishnu or Krishna]
>Fine! somewhere I'd read a text (British, on the Hare Krishna movement, I
>think, which suggested that for some reason - specified but forgotten by mje
>- that you sort of stopped at Krishna - and somewhere else, I believe you
>also stated saomething to the effect of not acknowledging a One - yet surely
>that is what Brahma is?
>Perhaps it is to do with the perception of the Supreme Oneness - and the
>ability to 'see' that to be One and All at the same time is no paradox????
>For me this ins necessary, for anything else must be only a portion of the
>truth.
>>
>>>>So my question is now - could you please discriminate in detail for me
>between
>>>>mind
>>>>intelligence
>>>>spirit
>>>>and I think there was a fourth, but can't recall it...
>>
>>> This is a very nice question. The third chapter of Bhagavad-gita is the
>>> place to look for the answer...(Bhagavad-gita 3.42)
>>
>>> indriyani parany ahur indriyebhyah param manah
>>> manasas tu para buddhir yo buddheh paratas tu sah
>>
>>>"The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the
>>>senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind and he [the soul] is
>>>even higher than the intelligence."
>>
>>> So there are five things: matter, the senses, the mind, the
>>> intelligence and the soul. For a materialist his motivation starts at
>>> the bottom, he looks to matter to satisfy his senses, he's controlled
>>> by the demands of his senses. The tongue says to the mind, "get food",
>>> the mind says to the intelligence, "get food" and the poor spirit soul
>>> is more or less just sitting there watching the whole thing going on.
>>
>>> A transcendentalist, on the other hand uses his [or her - but really
>>> we are not the body; the soul is not male or female... It depends on the
>>> body it is in] intelligence for spiritual pursuits and he controls his
>>> mind with his intelligence. So he, the spirit-soul is actually in
>>> control.
>>
>>> You can see from this that a materialist is not actually free. His
>>> senses are demanding satisfaction and the mind and intelligence are
>>> working to provide that sense gratification. The example is given of
>>> the driver of a carriage with the horses out of control... not very
>>> comfortable!
>>>
>>> There is much more detail available but I'm interested in what you
>>> think so far. Perhaps we can build on it in future postings?
>This is fine except for me it does not go far enough. I am trying to learn
>more of the writings of Sri Aurobindo - and unfortunately currently do not
>own any texts - but he goes into finer detail on the above - particularly at
>level of mind, and soul and beyond soul.
>I'd cewrtainly like to do further clarification at this point but me ability
>to explain myself clearly will be faulty.
>snipped all the gods stuff with thanks no real problems here... :)
>>> I'm not so interested in his ideas. I went to a lecture he gave at the
>>> ANU and heard what he had to say and read one of his books and his
>>> ideas were just convenient for my example so I used them..
>>
> actually you have avoided my question about your own background in math and
>science - and I again suggest Rudy Rucker to you...
>>>>How literally do you take the Gita? To me it seems to be
>allegory/metaphor and
>>>>then indeed very powerful.
>>
>>> No. We take it literally. It is the transcript of an actual
>>> conversation that took place 5,000 years ago on the battlefield of
>>> Kuruksetra between Krishna and Arjuna. Krishna was driving the chariot
>>> for Arjuna and He parked the chariot between the two armies just before
>>> the battle so Arjuna could see the strength of both armies. But when
>>> Arjuna saw so many friends and relatives on both sides he became
>>> bewildered and said to Krishna, "Krishna I can no fight." Then Krishna
>>> spoke the Bhagavad-gita.
>>
>>> Mainly I am quoting from "Bhagavad-gita As It Is" and "Srimad
>>> Bhagavatam" both translated by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta
>>> Swami Prabhupada published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust 1972-1977.
>>
>>> Bhagavad-gita is very well known even in the West. It is small [711
>>> verses] and contains the essence of all spiritual knowledge. Everything
>>> is there. You can become completely self realized by reading
>>> Bhagavad-gita As It Is [there are lots of nonsense commentaries which
>>> will not help much though... Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita is
>>> accepted by almost all authorities in India and the West as the best
>>> English translation]
>>
>>> Srimad Bhagavatam is much bigger [18,000 verses] and contains lots of
>>> details. It is described as the "Ripened fruit of the desire tree of
>>> Vedic knowledge". It was written by Srila Vyasadeva [who also wrote
>>> down all the other Vedic scriptures] but it was his final work. It
>>> contains the highest spiritual knowledge.
>>
>>>Thank you for the questions. Looking for
>OK
> ___________________________________________
>Madhudvisa dasa | |
>(madhudvisa@krishna.org) | S H E L T E R I N T E R N A T I O N A L |
> +61 02 248 967 |___________________________________________|
> CHANT HARE KRISHNA AND BE HAPPY!
>
>Quotes from His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (c) BBT
Thank you. Hare Krishna!
Madhudvisa dasa
(madhudvisa@krishna.org) /sudarsana
All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!
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