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waal@informatik.uni-bonn.de (Christian de Waal) wrote:
>On Fri, 19 May 1995 23:36:15 GMT, madhudvisa@krishna.org (Madhudvisa
>dasa) wrote:
<< snip >>
>maybe you never met the right girl. i just have enough money to make
>my living _and_ am together with my girlfriend more or less happily
>for 1.5 years now.
1.5 years is not a long time really, and people do live together for
their whole lives sometimes and remain relatively happy... There are
always exceptions.
>> So you have to
>> work your guts out to get the money... It's really very hard work.
>> People don't connect it, but look in the shops, all the expensive
>> clothes, all the jewelry, the cosmetics, nice cars, etc...
>nice cars are _hardcore_ man! :) just kidding. no, i see all the
>luxury just the way you do. but you talk like women were like machines
>or computers: you put money on the input stream and get sex on the
>output stream. it's not that way, not with all women.
I don't mean that women are machines, rather the process of attracting
and entertaining a woman often motivates men to work very hard to buy
nice machines...
>btw, all i have
>is a bicycle and my girl friend still loves me........
Yes, there are exceptions of course...
>> Why are we
>> buying all this stuff? To attract someone for sex. It becomes our whole
>> life and all our energy is spent in that way.
>yeah, that's right. but i would use the "they"-form, not the
>"we"-form.
OK.
>> It ends in frustration because sex is not forever. If you have lots of
>> sex when you are young then you soon have "postrate gland" troubles and
>> then things become very difficult... Then you take to the pot and
>> alcohol more seriously [because of frustration in sex life] then you're
>> just another bum on the street...
>pretty crass....... the most bums out on the streets aren't there
>because of a sex life with a sad end.
Many are. It's a common thing, people get frustrated with relationships
and turn to drugs and alcohol for relief and end up alcoholics and drug
addicts... I know lots of them.
>> Of course you may be "successful". You might land one of those
>> high-stress, high-pay, long hours jobs and spend 12 hours a day
>> traveling to and from work and working your butt off so you can enjoy
>> the "good life". In either case you won't have much opportunity to
>> consider the more subtle questions of life, "Who am I?", "What's the
>> purpose of life?", "What happens after death?". The real value of human
>> life is we can find answers to these questions. But if you just live
>> for sex, drugs and punk-rock, it will be difficult to think about
>> anything else.
>so the 12 hour working yuppies are the ones doing the "sex, drugs and
>punk-rock" thing?!
No. I think I should have made two separate paragraphs here.
>> We are not these bodies. I am not Australian, you are not Americian.
>btw, i'm german of slovakian and netherland origin, but who cares....
Exactly. It doesn't matter. We're not the body. We're the spirit soul
inside.
<< snip >>
>so what is this soul, or, what might explain your "soul" best
The soul is the spiritual force inside the body. It is the person. You
can tell the soul is in the body by consciousness. As soon as the soul
leaves the body the consciousness is gone. We call that "death". But it
is the body that is dead. The body is dead all the time. It is the
presence of the soul within the body that makes it appear alive...
dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
"As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to
youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death.
A sober person ls not bewildered by such a change." (Bhagavad-gita
2.13)
> What are these spiritual pleasures?
Material pleasure means to satisfy the body, to satisfy the senses.
These pleasures are temporary and, although they give us some pleasure,
they never satisfy. We always want more..
Spiritual pleasure is something that satisfies the soul. But to
understand this you need to know something about the soul. There is a
Supreme Soul and we are individual small souls. Our natural tendency is
to serve, even now, in the material world, almost all our activities
are connected with service. If you love someone you want to serve that
person, you want to do something for her. If you work you have to serve
your boss and the customers, and we are always serving our senses. So
our business is service. The real service, the service that gives us
real, eternal, spiritual pleasure is not found within these material
types of service. It is found when we, the small souls serve the supreme
soul, or God, Krishna. It's the same service but the result is
diffirent.
There is another world beyond this one, the spiritual world. Everything
is situated differently there. It is sat cit and ananda; eternal, full
of knowledge and full of pleasure. That's what we are looking for. The
soul is "anandamaya" it means "full of pleasure", but here, in the
material world we [the souls] are covered by these material bodies
which are just the opposite; asat, acit and nirananda; "temporary",
"full of ignorance", and "full of anxiety". If we identify with the
material body, thinking "I'm a German man" we think we are the body.
The body gets old but "I", the soul, am eternally youthful, the body
gets sick, but "I" the soul don't, the body dies but "I" never die. So
there is an incompatibility between what I want and what the body can
give me. So "I" can never be satisfied with bodily pleasures. There
will always seem to be something missing...
But there is spiritual service. Instead of serving myself, I can serve
God, Krishna. The activities may be similar, you are cooking some food
and I am also cooking some food, the process is the same... But you are
cooking for yourself [or your girlfriend, or family..] but I am cooking
for Krishna. I do the same cooking and then I offer the food to Krishna
and eat "prasadam" or the remnants of the food Krishna has tasted.
I know it may all sound a little strange but the idea is we have to
serve, it's the nature of the soul, the nature of our being. If we
serve material things on the bodily platform we become more and more
materialistic, more attached to the body. This means at the time of
death we will be thinking about material things so we have to come
back here again for another temporary life full of frustration...
On the other hand if we serve Krishna and think of Krishna at the time
oof death we go to Krishna in the spiritual world, back home, back to
Godhead. That is our real home and we can regain our original spiritual
body that is eternally youthful, full of knowledge and full of
pleasure. That's what we want but we are trying to get these things
through matter so it is a frustrating thing.
>> Practically speaking it is impossible to give up sex. The desire is so
>> strong. But it is possible if you can get a higher taste, if you can
>> enjoy something better than sex. Spiritual pleasure is so nice that sex
>> becomes unimportant. If you are hungry almost any food looks attractive
>> to you but if you have just eaten a nice meal you are satisfied, more
>> food is not very tempting. This is a difficult thing to explain, you
>> have to experience it really, but we are not "missing out" on anything
>> by not having sex. We save so much time, so much energy [you loose so
>> much energy through sex], and our minds remain peaceful. It's freedom
>> actually. Being addicted to sex means you are not free.
>inside your body of course you never are free. to be free, you gotta
>kill yourself.
You can't kill yourSELF. You, the soul, are eternal. You can only kill
your body but that is very sinful because you have this human body to
make spiritual advancement, so if you kill it you will become a ghost
as punishment. For some time you will stay in this world and be able to
see everything but you have no material body. You still have the same
desires and problems that caused you to kill yourself but you have no
way to express yourself... It is very frustrating. Sometimes ghosts
take advantage of people who are weak because of being very drunk or
some other reason and they take over their bodies.. Then you can find
your friend is not your friend any more... He's a completely different
person...
>you aren't free because you have to eat, drink, sleep
>and take a shit now and then. that's fact. but then again, you are
>your body. your soul is just an abstraction the actually lo-tech brain
>makes because it can't see it's just a part (the cpu) of the body. i
>believed in having a soul and a life after death and stuff like that,
>but then i realized i was only running away. once you face the facts
>it's a lot easier.
The CPU analogy is _NOT_ valid. The brain may be a CPU. But a CPU can
only process data, it follows exactly the instructions given to it by
the programmer. It can't do anything that is not written into the
program. It is you [the soul] who is controlling the body. It has
nothing to do with the hardware of the machine of the body. You are
driving the body as a driver is driving a motorcar...
People give up believing in the soul and life after death because they
want to live irresponsible lives. If they believe in life after death
then they might have to believe in heaven and hell as well... But these
things are all real. You are the soul, there is a God, there is heaven
and there is hell...
>so, maybe i'm addicted to sex: so what?
Everybody is. But if you can become addicted to Krishna that's the
cure. You may say you don't want to be "cured" but sex can't satisfy
you. It is pleasurable undoubtedly, but you are never satisfied.
Because its pleasure for the body and you are not the body...
<< snip >>
>who is god, krishna? i don't want to live for someone else, i want to
>"use" the good things in life for my fucking egoistic self! :)
Yes. That is the material idea. But you will become frustrated by it.
The world is designed to frustrate our material desires. We may have to
take birth many, many times and suffer material birth, old age, disease
and death, but eventually we will realize material pleasure is not
satisfying and look to spiritual pleasure instead.
>> Even sex can be used for Him. You can get married and have
>> children and bring them up nicely. That is religious.
>who defines what is religious.
God, Krishna. Religion means the rules given by God.
>> So we're not
>> against sex and family life. Only illicit sex.
>who defines that sex before marriage is "illicit"? this is the first
>time i here of something like "illicit sex".
Now you've heard it!
>> And we never die! The soul is eternal so death means I leave this body
>> and then I am placed within the womb of my next mother.
>where do you know so sure from?
I know because I accept Krishna's words in the Bhagavad-gita, but I
also know it from my own feelings. "I" am clearly not "my" body. "I"
and the "person" using "my" body. Many philosophers have come to this
understanding independently from religion.
>> If you have
>> lived this life for sex then you will be put into the womb of a mother
>> so you get a body which can have lots of sex...
>and if i cut of my weener? where am i put then?
You get what you want. There are 8,400,000 species of life and they are
all good for enjoying or suffering something. If you want to fly you
can get an eagles body, if you want to surf you can have a dolphins
body, if you want to fight and kill you can have a lion's body.. And
you'll be happy. [ignorance is bliss!] That's what you wanted to do.
But you will have missed the opportunity to get out of this miserable
material world...
>> The monkeys in the
>> jungle swing from tree to tree and in every tree they find another
>> monkey... The pigeons have so much sex, and they enjoy it too, just
>> like you. The pigeons pleasure and your pleasure is not that much
>> different!
>i thought you were the vegan guys who waited for the moment the cows
>take over on this planet and start eating small children.......
We're not vegans. Vegans don't drink milk but milk is one of the most
important foods. The cows transform their blood into milk and give it
to us in a peaceful, non-violent way. The milk contains everything the
flesh does except the violence... Milk is a complete food. You can
remain completely healthy just by drinking milk. It is very special. It
also helps to develop the finer tissues in the brain required to
understand more subtle things like spiritual life.
> i mean
>you always anthropomorphize animals, they were creatures just as we
>are, ...,
They are creatures just like we are... You can take a cow's body after
your German one. It will still be you, the same person, but you will
think you are a cow then instead of a German!
>and then, when it fits into your talk, you put me on one
>level with the pigeons to show me how poor i am. but sorry, i have no
>problem in makeing my living just like any other animal,
No. The pigeon example is not about poverty, its about sex. They can
have lots of sex..
>i accept i am
>an animal, i eat other animals just as all other non-vegan animals
>do...... what's s bad about the way pigeons live?
No. It's OK. If you want to live in a pigeon's body!
>> So the human body is not really meant for just sex. It's meant for
>> making spiritual advancement, for answering the really important
>> questions, and to purify our consciousness
>[sorry for the cut in the middle of the sentence]
>why should mother nature have made our body not just for sex
She made the pigeon's body for that! She had higher hopes for the human
body.
>but for
>spiritual advancement and those things. the genes are passed through
>time whether you advance spiritually and answer questions on why
>you're here etc. or just eat, drink, shit and fuck. sorry to say it
>this hard, but that's how it is. that's what we're made for.
No. The genes don't do it. You bring the ideas with you from your
previous birth. Whatever you work at in this life, if you don't finish
it, you will get a body in the next life so you can continue the same
thing. Sometimes we hear about six year-olds who can play the panio
perfectly and the like... They are continuing it from their previous
lives...
>> so we don't have to come
>> back here again, and again, and again, and again....
>so krishna is like a bit buddhism or so?
On one level. Buddha is an incarnation of Krishna so we worship Him in
that way but His philosophy is different. God appears at different
times and His purpose is to reestablish religion. But He has to present
something the people will accept... So when Lord Buddha appeared most
people were athiests so if He had preached about God not many people
would have been interested. So He didn't mention God... So Buddhists
don't belive in God. They believe in reincarnation up to the point of
entering "Nirvana" or the "void". Then their philosophy holds they
cease to exist... But we don't accept this. The soul is eternal, it
never ceases to exist.
>> >>thanx for answering (hopefully).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>peace out...
>> >>-YChristY
>> >I'm not a Krishna, but I do respect the beliefs of those who remain drug free and
>> >responsible for their actions...and I think it's pretty safe to say that who ever
>> >wrote the comment above me is A PIECE OF SHIT!
>> No. He's asked a good question. That is a great quality. He's expressed
>> his doubts told us what his idea is and asked us to explain our idea.
>> He's an intelligent man.
>oh come on, maybe this is you're way of being friendly / peaceful
>towards all people, but i prefer being treated honestly.......! how do
>you know i'm intelligent by the 11 lines + "thanx" + signature i
>posted?
It was a good question. And it is reasonable. Thanks. Hare Krishna!
Thank you. Hare Krishna!
Madhudvisa dasa
(madhudvisa@krishna.org) /sudarsana
All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!
Sudarsana Home madhudvisa@krishna.org