Al-chanan wrote:
>In article op4@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au, madhudvisa@krishna.org (Madhudvisa dasa ) writes:
<snip>
>:Jesus is the son of God. He is speaking the word of God,
>:therefore he is not different from God and he should be worshipped as God.
>:But he has his father in heaven... It is a little difficult to understand.
>:But Jesus and Krishna are simultaneously one and different and this is
>:inconceivable.
>Inconceivable? Of course. You mean like Visnu and Krsna (different but the same?)
NO! Visnu and Krishna are NOT different. That is also difficult to
understand. They are one and the same. They appear differently. The
example of a high court judge has sometimes been given. When he is seen in
the court in his wig and official clothes he appears different to the way
one would see him at his house. But he is the same person. Krishna and
Visnu are both Visnu-shakti whereas Jesus is Jiva-shakti. It is certainly
not the same thing...
>Look at your translations of Srimad Bhagavadam, and reference how many times the
>name Krsna is interchanged with a sanskrit reference which refers to God by another
>name, attribute or nature.
There is no reference to "God by another name, attribute or nature". These
are all names, attributes and natures of Krishna. Krishna is called
"Govinda" because he is the friend of the cows and the brahmanas, He is
called Madhusudana because He killed the Madhu demon, He is called
Partha-Sarati because he appeared angry in the battlefield, He is called
Nrsimhadeva because He appeared in the form of a half-man, half-lion to
protect His devotee Prahlada and to kill the demon Hiranyakasipu, He is
called Yasoda-Nandana because He is the Son of Mother Yasoda, He is called
Bhagavan because He possesses all opulences in full. He has so many names.
In India it is very common for people to chant the "Visnu Sahasra Nam",
the 1,000 names of Visnu. He has so many names, unlimited names, but He is
the one original Supreme Personality of Godhead.
>Your logic contradicts your own teachings.
Yo do not understand our logic. That is the problem. It is inconceivable
as I have already mentioned. It cannot be understood in the terms of
ordinary mundane logic.
>The threefold name of God is written of in the Bhagavad Gita, Om Tat, Sat.
Bhagavad-gita 7.23
om tat sad iti nirdeso
brahmanas tri-vidhah smrtah
brahmanas tena vedas ca
yajnas ca vihitah pura
"From the beginning of creation, the three syllables -- om tat sat -- have
been used to indicate the Supreme Absolute Truth [Brahman]. They were
uttered by brahmanas while chanting Vedic hymns and during sacrifices for
the satisfaction of the Supreme.
A section of the Purport by Srila Prabhupada
...The three words om tat sat are uttered in conjunction with the
holy name of the Supreme Lord, e.g., om tad visnoh. Whenever a Vedic hymn
or the holy name of the Supreme Lord is uttered, om is added. This is the
indication of Vedic literature. These three words are taken from Vedic
hymns. Om ity etad brahmano nedistham nama (Rg Veda) indicates the first
goal. Then tat tvam asi (Chandogya Upanisad 6.8.7) indicates the second
goal. And sad eva saumya (Chandogya Upanisad 6.2.1) indicates the third
goal. Combined they become om tat sat. Formerly when Brahma, the first
created living entity, performed sacrifices, he indicated by these three
words the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the same principle has
always been followed by disciplic succession. So this hymn has great
significance. Bhagavad-gita recommends, therefore, that any work done
should be done for om tat sat, or for the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
When one performs penance, charity and sacrifice with these three words,
he is acting in Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is a scientific
execution of transcendental activities which enables one to return home,
back to Godhead. There is no loss of energy in acting in such a
transcendental way.
>:Krishna Himself personally appeared only five hundred years ago in India
>:as Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and He established the yuga-dharma of
>:chanting the holy names of God. He many times stressed:
>:
>:"In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is
>:the chanting of the Holy Names of the Lord. There is no other way. There
>:is no other way. There is no other way."
>Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu never claimed to be "the source of all creation". Only
Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Krishna Himself appearing in the mood of
Srimati Radharani to taste the highest spiritual ecstasy of service in
separation. It is the highest spiritual sentiment and it is often
misunderstood by mundaners. Because He appeared in the mood of a devotee
of course He didn't claim to be the "source of all creation", but advanced
devotees could detect that He was actually Krishna, the Supreme
Personality of Godhead who had appeared to establish the religious
principles for this age, tha chanting of the Holy Names of the Lord. He is
called a channa avatara or a "covered" avatara as He appeared as a
devotee. His appearance is predicted throughout all the Vedic scriptures
and He is described as being "saksat krsna" or directly Krishna. So there
is no doubt, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the same Lord Krishna appearing
in a different mood.
"O most munificent incarnation! You are Krishna Himself appearing as Sri
Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. You have assumed the golden color of Srimati
Radharani, and You are widely distributing pure love of Krishna. We offer
our respectful obeisances unto You." (Caitanya-caritamrta Mad 19.53)
"In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting
to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of
Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself,
He is accompanied by His associates, servants weapons and confidential
companions." (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.52.32)
>Jesus Christ, and Krsna spoke such words. Lord Caitanya taught precisely the devotion
>which Jesus taught..."Hallowed be thy name..". Our prayer of Hare Krsna, needs also
>a heart of devtion and submission to God's Holy will to be a viable prayer. If I
>tape record a chant and play it in an empty room, it in an of itself is not as
>pleasing to God, as is a devotee devotionally chanting the name of the Lord or
>listening to the name of the Lord.
Yes, this is very nice. Except Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu IS Krishna and is
of course the source of all creation. You cannot disagree with this. I can
give you dozens of references in the Vedic scriptures if you like. Lord
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is directly Krishna.
>:Lord Caitanya personally chanted [and instructed His followers to chant]
>:tha Hare Krishna maha-mantra. It is a specially potent combination of the
>:names of God and extremely effective in this age of Kali:
>: Hare Krishna Hare Kriahna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
>: Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare
>Of course, because Krsna and Jesus Christ are the same being. Scriptures of
>east and west both say it. It is also written,.."There will be one flock and
>one Shepard.." and "I have other sheep not of this fold and they hear my voice "
>(John Chapter 10)
>:As devotees of Lord Krishna we appreciate all the other devotees of Lord
>:Krishna like Lord Jesus Christ. But we have to follow our spiritual master
>:and Krishna.
>Jesus Christ is the Supreme perSONality of the Godhead, Krsna. You have yet
>to surrender to this realisation.
>:As you know even Lord Jesus Christ went to India, to the
>:temple of Lord Jagannatha to study. He was studying the same Bhagavad-gita
>:we are studying. He returned from India and taught the same message as is
>:presented in the Bhagavad-gita by Lord Krishna Himself. So his teachings
>:in the Bible, as you have noted, are quite compatible with the Vedic
>:understanding.
>Just as Krsna as a young boy studied.
Yes. Krishna also had a guru. He went to the asrama of Sandipani Muni to
study. But what an exceptional student He was!
"The ocean is the source of water in a river. The cloud is created by the
evaporation of ocean water, and the same water is distributed as rain all
over the surface of the earth and then returns towards the ocean in
rivers. So Krishna and Balarama, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are
the source of all kinds of knowledge, but because They were playing like
ordinary human boys, They set the example so that everyone would receive
knowledge from the right source. Thus they agreed to take knowledge from a
spiritual master.
"After hearing only once from the teacher, Krishna and Balarama learned
all the arts and sciences. In sixty-four days and sixty-four nights They
learned all the necessary arts and sciences that are required in human
society. During the daytime they took lessons on a subject from the
teacher, and by nightfall, after having heard from the teacher, They were
expert in that department of knowledge." (From Krishna Book V2)
>:But we are folowing Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We are coming in His
>:line of disciplic succession.
>:We can't really mix everything up as you
>:have attempted to do in your presentation.
>Jesus said : "A kingdom cannot be divided against itself"..
It is not divided...
>Holy scriptures do not mix things up. That happens in the minds of human beings. Fallen and deluded creatures. As I said, I said nothing of my own. I simply state
>what is written in Holy Scriptures.
They are presented at different times and different places, in different
languages and to people with different cultural backgrounds. Everything is
however complete in the Vedic literature. It includes everything else.
With this understanding everything is clear.
>What you are claiming is that Holy Scriptures are mixed up.
No. I have said you have mixed them up. You can't do that. They present
the same message, but you have to accept a spiritual master and follow his
instructions, you can't make your own interpretation. The knowledge
descends from Krishna to us via the disciplic succession, from our
spiritual master. While the acaryas in the disciplic succession have all
respect for Lord Jesus Christ and his teachings it is coming down through
a different line. Ours is the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudia sampradaya. We accept
knowledge originally revealed within the heart of Lord Brahma, the first
person within the universe, Lord Brahma instructed it to Narada Muni, and
gradually it came to Madhava, then gradually to Madhavendra Puri, to
Isvara Puri, then to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then the six gosvamis of
Vrndavana, then Krishnadas Kaviraja, then Narottama dasa, then Visvanatha,
then Jagannatha das Babaji, then Bhaktivinode Thakura, then Gaurakisora
das Babaji, then Bhaktsiddhanta Sarasvati, then His Divine Grace A.C.
Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. And now we are presenting the same
knowledge in the disciplic succession. That is perfect. We can't mix
everything up. That will spoil everything. We have to present the same
thing our spiritual master presented to us. We may put it in our own words
of course, but we can't change it.
> You know Krsna to be
>Supreme Lord, yet Lord Krsna took human form. All Infinite, Uncreated God Absolute
>as Human Being. This in and of itself (borrowing a phrase from you)
>"are simultaneously one and different and this is inconceivable". When we begin to
>try to rationalize Krsna in the appearance of a Human Being on earth, but also
>God Absolute, Infinite and Uncreated, we can NEVER come to understanding this
>with our limited logic. It would be dangerous to believe so. We must accept on
>faith....which is exactly what the Lord wants us to do...believe.
Yes. It has to come to faith. But not blind faith. "You must believe" is
not something an intelligent person will accept. He has to understand why.
And a bona fide spiritual master can explain this. Faith develops in the
association of pure devotees.
>:It is the same knowledge in the
>:Bible and the Bhagavad-gita, but we are coming in Lord Sri Caitanya
>:Mahaprabhu's line so we follow his instructions. He instructed us to chant
>:Hare Krishna and to read the Srimad Bhagavatam, so we do that.
>I have no quarrel with your way. This is most excellent.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Thank you. Hare Krishna!
Madhudvisa dasa
(madhudvisa@krishna.org) /sudarsana
All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!
Sudarsana Home madhudvisa@krishna.org