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>From RAPH@VANGO.FNAL.GOV Fri May 26 07:53:24 1995
>Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 16:52:27 -0500 (CDT)
>From: "Jim Hawtree <raph@fnalv.fnal.gov>" <RAPH@FNALV.FNAL.GOV>
>madhudvisa@krishna.org (Madhudvisa dasa ) writes:
>>Subject: Re: Abortion is Murder!
>> At one time you were within the womb of your mother. If she had
>> undergone the "medical procedure" you outline above you wouldn't be
>> here now, however she didn't so here you are. Surely if she had
>> undergone the "medical procedure" she would have killed you. It's not
>> too difficult to understand surely?
>>Madhudvisa dasa
>>(madhudvisa@krishna.org)
>
>At no point was *I* in my mother's womb. The *body* I was *soon* to
>occupy was.
The soul enters the womb at the time of "conception". The time of the
union between the man and the woman. The embryo cannot grow and change
within the mother's womb without the soul. If the soul leaves the
embryo in the womb it "dies" and a stillbirth is the result. Stillbirth
means a dead child.. no soul.
>Or at least the second body; my mother had a stillbirth
>two years before my life started, but her second pregnancy was
>successful in producing a viable body that could sustain my human life
>past birth.
How do you know the other body was yours?
>
>You say, "At one time you were within the womb of your mother." I say,
>"Sometime in the future you will be in the grave."
I will never be in the grave. My body will be in the grave. It will not
be growing there, it will be rotting. You can't compare the rotting
body in the grave with the living, growing child in the womb. Every
mother knows it. The child is living in her womb. Sometimes he's happy
sometimes he's upset. According to the Vedas after the seventh month
the child is conscious in the womb, he is aware of his surroundings...
>Will you also be
>living in the grave?
The symptoms of the presence of the soul are growth and consciousness,
both are present in the child in the womb, neither are present in the
rotting corpse in the grave. Surely you can see the difference?
>I thought only atheists did not believe in a
>"soul" that was independent from the body. You do not believe in the
>existence of a soul then?
My dear friend, I am disgusted with your devious attempts to condone
the killing of a child in the womb of it's mother with your nonsense.
The presence of the soul in the womb of the mother is required for
pregnancy. If there is no soul there is no pregnancy. The mother's womb
provides an environment for the child to develop and the child is
nourished directly form the mother's body.. But the child is a
separate person. These things are very clear -- anybody can see. If the
soul leaves the body during the pregnancy, ie: the embryo dies, then
there is a still-birth.
>Where were you a month before your mother became pregnant?
At the time of death, depending on our activities, the soul goes to
different places. A sinful man has to go to the court of Yamaraja, the
Lord of death, for judgment. He will most probably be sent to hell. A
pious person can be promoted to heaven and we can also take birth on
this planet again. If one is God conscious at the time of death he can
go back home, back to Godhead. So depending upon what we deserve the
soul is placed in the womb of the next mother. So one month before I
was in the womb of my mother I was living somewhere else. "I", the
soul, am eternal. It is only my body that gets old and dies.
>Were you
>deprived of life then? Are virgins depriving souls of life by not
>getting pregnant? Then why is not the practice of virginity the same
>ethically as the practice of abortion? Or *are* they ethically
>equivalent?
Your arguments are completely obnoxious. I can't believe someone who
calls himself a Christian could think such nonsense. If you don't have
sex there is no conception, there is no soul placed within the womb, so
there is no question of the sin of killing the embryo, there is no
embryo to kill!
>The name of this newsgroup I read your posting in is
>"alt.BIBLE.prophecy." The BIBLE in dozens of places describes LIFE as
>being identical with breath;
Yes life and the "airs" are intimately connected. There are different
circles of air within the body called "chakras" and these different
chakras are the life-airs upon which the soul sits. So there is a
connection but these "airs" are present in the embryo in the womb of
the mother...
>as breath as life; as starting with
>breath; with life entering with breath (even as through the nostrils);
>and with life departing with the last breath.
Generally at death, for an ordinary person, the "life airs" do leave
through the mouth. But they are already there in the child in the
womb.. In any case if, as in my original posting, you are within your
mother's womb and I kill the embryo, you are forced to leave that body
and suffer for nine months in another woman's womb. If I kill the
embryo you can't take birth. That is very inconvenient and painful for
you and it is a very grave sin for me.
>This is defined and
>described dozens of times in the Bible. Many, many other spiritual and
>religious traditions describe breath as life, where the soul becomes
>conscious through the physical body between birth and death. There are
>many Buddhist sutras that talk of this. Because you use the title
>"Swami" I assume that you are learned in the Hindu traditions, perhaps
>they are different than Judaic and Christian and Buddhist and other
>scriptures; but if they are then alt.bible.prophecy is not the
>newsgroup for them, although that would be a very interesting thread
>to pursue.
Your Christian Bible doesn't allow you to kill children in their
mother's wombs! I am stunned that you present yourself as a Christian
and at the same time try to support such a gross sinful activity by
twisting the words of the Bible to suit your own ends.
>
>I am concerned that you have neither thought this through, read much of
>scriptures of world religions, or have much knowledge of the relation
>between consciousness and life; nor are aware that there are places and
>times for discussions (that is, the appropriate fora).
I think you need not be concerned for my understanding, but you should
consider your own. Nothing can grow and change without the presence of
the soul, life. The child within the mothers womb is a different
person. Every mother knows it. As the pregnancy goes on the child
starts to move, sometimes he is happy, sometimes he is upset, sometimes
he is kicking his mother. Mothers know these things...
Hare Krishna!
Thank you. Hare Krishna!
Madhudvisa dasa
(madhudvisa@krishna.org) /sudarsana
All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!
Sudarsana Home madhudvisa@krishna.org