The Final Order–A Very Misleading Paper
Krishna Kant has completely misrepresented the teachings of Srila Prabhupada on one specific point. He has attempted to prove Srila Prabhupada did not intend any of his disciples to become initiating gurus, ever. This is his unique addition to the ritvik philosophy. He has attempted to prove this point by selectively quoting from Srila Prabhupada and using much word jugglery.
My intention in this article is not to enter into the politics of the guru issue or give my own opinions or the opinions of any group of followers of Srila Prabhupada. My interest is to simply present the actual teachings of Srila Prabhupada on a specific point. The reason for this presentation is in his paper, “The Final Order,” Krishna Kant has completely misrepresented the teachings of Srila Prabhupada on one specific point.
Krishna Kant has attempted to prove that Srila Prabhupada did not intend any of his disciples to become diksa [initiating] gurus, ever. This is his unique addition to the ritvik philosophy. He has attempted to prove this point by selectively quoting from Srila Prabhupada and using much word jugglery. This rather bizarre philosophy is unique to Krishna Kant and his few followers. It is not shared by the general body of the followers of Srila Prabhupada.
We have on a number of occasions presented clear irrefutable evidence of Srila Prabhupada issuing specific orders to his disciples on become qualified diska gurus. However Krishna Kant is not prepared to even consider Srila Prabhupada’s direct instructions on the matter and accept that the conclusion of his paper, “There is no evidence of Srila Prabhupada issuing specific orders for his disciples to become diksa gurus,” is completely false and a complete misrepresentation of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
761210DB.HYD Lectures
So we got this information from His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and that knowledge is still going on. You are receiving through his servant. And in future the same knowledge will go to your students. This is called parampara system. Evam parampara prap… It is not that you have become a student and you’ll remain student. No. One day you shall become also guru and make more students, more students, more. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission, not that perpetually… Yes, one should remain perpetually a student, but he has to act as guru. That is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. It is not that because I am acting as guru, I am no longer student. No, I am still student. Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught us this instruction that we shall always remain a foolish student before our Guru Maharaja. That is the Vedic culture. I may be very big man, but still, I should remain a foolish student to my guru. That is the qualification. Guru more murkha dekhi’ karila sasana. We should be always prepared to be controlled by the guru. That is very good qualification. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. Ara na kariha mane asa. So we should become always a very obedient student to our guru. That is the qualification. That is the spiritual qualification.
Here, in December of 1976, only months before his departure from our material vision, Srila Prabhupada clearly orders his disciples to act as gurus in the future. Prabhupada states his disciples will not remain only students. As Srila Prabhupada has received the knowledge from his guru and he is acting as diksa guru by giving the same knowledge to his students, in the same way his students must go on to become diksa gurus and give the same knowledge to their students. Prabhupada is ordering his students to become qualified diksa gurus.. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission. The qualification is required: “I should remain a foolish student to my guru. We should always be prepared to be controlled by the guru.”
660729BG.NY Lectures
There is no consideration of material impediment. So it is open for everyone. Catur-varnyam maya srstam. That is a chance given, that you can become a brahmana, you can become a great devotee of Lord Krsna, and you can become the spiritual master of the world. That is the… And I think you should take seriously.
This is a specific order from Srila Prabhupada stating becoming spiritual master of the world is open for all of his disciples. The chance is given and he requests his disciples to take it seriously. Of course it is conditional on the disciples becoming qualified. However the order to become the spiritual master of the world is clearly given. If one becomes the spiritual master of the world he will, of course, accept disciples.
750406CC.MAY Lectures
And to become acarya is not very difficult. First of all, to become very faithful servant of your acarya, follow strictly what he says. Try to please him and spread Krsna consciousness. That’s all. It is not at all difficult. Try to follow the instruction of your Guru Maharaja and spread Krsna consciousness. That is the order of Lord Caitanya.
Here Srila Prabhupada is asking his disciples to become acaryas. He gives the advice “try to become very faithful servant of your acarya, follow strictly what he says. Try to please him and spread Krishna consciousness. That’s all. It is not difficult. That is the order of Lord Caitanya.” If one is an acarya he will certainly accept disciples. The clear order from Srila Prabhupada to his disciples to become acaryas is here. Of course it is conditional on the disciples being qualified. But Prabhupada has given the order. Any of his disciples can become qualified and accept this order.
680817VP.MON Lectures
Now, this spiritual master’s succession is not very difficult. Of course, my students, they offer me so much respect, but all these respects are due to my spiritual master. I am nothing. I am just like peon. Just like peon delivers one letter. He is not responsible for what is written in that letter. He is not responsible for what is written in that letter. He simply delivers. But a peon’s duty is that he must sincerely carry out the order of the postmaster and deliver the letter to the proper person. That is their duty. Similarly, this parampara system is like that. Every one of us should become a spiritual master because the world is in blazing fire. (aside:) You can give them prasadam. Now, of course, time is very high. So to understand the spiritual master… Spiritual master is not a new invention. It is simply following the orders of the spiritual master. So all my students present here who are feeling so much obliged… I am also obliged to them because they are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master next. And what is their duty? Whatever you are hearing from me, whatever you are learning from me, you have to distribute the same in toto without any addition or alteration. Then all of you become the spiritual master.
That is the science of becoming spiritual master. Spiritual master is not any… To become a spiritual master is not very wonderful thing. Simply one has to become sincere soul. That’s all. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that “By disciplic succession this yoga process of Bhagavad-gita was handed down from disciple to disciple. But in course of time that disciplic succession is now lost. Therefore, Arjuna, I am teaching you again the same philosophy.”
Here Srila Prabhupada orders his disciples to become spiritual master next. Clearly Srila Prabhupada is speaking of the “spiritual master’s succession,” he is speaking of himself as the current spiritual master and is requesting all of his disciples to “become spiritual master next.” Prabhupada is clearly talking of diksa gurus. He mentions becoming a spiritual master depends on the qualification of becoming a sincere soul and simply delivering the message like a ‘peon’ delivers a letter. He carries the order and delivers it to the proper person. The qualification is required but the clear order to his disciples to become diksa gurus is given yet again.
Songs Purport to Sri-Sri-Gurv-astakam 690102PU.LA
We should always remember that the spiritual master is in the disciplic succession. The original spiritual master is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He blesses his next disciple, just like Brahma. Brahma blesses his next disciple, just like Narada. Narada blesses his next disciple, just like Vyasa. Vyasa blesses his next disciple, Madhvacarya. Similarly, the blessing is coming. Just like royal succession–the throne is inherited by disciplic or hereditary succession–similarly, this power from the Supreme Personality of Godhead has to receive. Nobody can preach, nobody can become a spiritual master, without obtaining power from the right source. Therefore the very word, it is stated here, praptasya. Praptasya means “one who has obtained.” Praptasya kalyana. What he has obtained? Kalyana. Kalyana means auspicity. He has received something which is auspicious for all the human kind. Praptasya kalyana-gunarnavasya. Here is another example. Gunarnava. Arnava means ocean, and guna means spiritual qualities. Just like the same example is going on. It is very nice poetry. There is nice rhethorics and metaphor. The example is set, blazing fire, and it is to be extinguished with the cloud. And wherefrom the cloud comes? Similarly, wherefrom the spiritual master receives the mercy? The cloud receives his potency from the ocean. Therefore the spiritual master also receives his power from the ocean of spiritual quality, that is, from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So praptasya kalyana-gunarnavasya. Such kind of spiritual master, one has to accept, and vande guroh sri-caranaravindam, and one has to offer his respectful obeisances to such authorized spiritual master. (end)
Here the system of authorization for the position of diksa guru is given. The blessing is coming down in the disciplic succession. Brahma blesses Narada [and others] Narada blesses Vyasa [and others] and so on. The blessing is coming down. Bhaktsiddhanta blessed Srila Prabhupada [and others] Prabhupada took that blessing and the orders of his spiritual master as his life and soul. Therefore he received the potency to become the spiritual master of the world. Now Prabhupada is blessing his disciples with the same power. But they have to become qualified, they have to accept the orders of their spiritual master as their life and soul. Still the blessing is there, the order is there, the power is there. Any one of Prabhupada’s disciples can receive this blessing and the power to become a diksa guru.
710718RC.DET Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.
Here Prabhupada clearly states his disciples are being trained to be future diksa gurus. They will act just as he is acting [ie: they will act as diksa gurus]. Of course they have to become qualified…
770415rc.bom Conversations
Prabhupada: “Like father, like son.” You should be. Gaurangera bhakta…, jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana tara’ ei desa. He asked everyone, “Just become guru.” Follow His instruction. You become guru. Amara ajnaya. Don’t manufacture ideas. Amara ajnaya. “What I say, you do. You become a guru.” Where is the difficulty? “And what is Your ajna?” Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita. You simply repeat. That’s all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and speak what Krsna has said. Bas. You become guru.
Here Prabhupada orders his disciples to become guru, just like him (ie: diksa gurus) Once again he mentions the qualifications.
750302BA.ATL Lectures
So you are hearing this philosophy daily. Try to understand more and more. We have got so many books. And this is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and, by disciplic succession, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, then my spiritual master. Then we are trying our level best. Similarly, you will also try your level best on the same principle. Then it will go on. Same principle. It doesn’t matter whether one is born in India or outside India. No. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama, “As many towns and cities and villages are there,” He did not say it to make a farce. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
So sometimes I am very much criticized that I am making foreigners a brahmana. The caste brahmanas in India, they are very much against me. But this is not fact. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that all over the world His message will be broadcast, does it mean that it will be simply a cinema show? No. He wanted that everyone should become perfect Vaisnava. That is His purpose.
Here Srila Prabhupada orders his disciples to try their level best on the same principle as Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktsiddhanta and himself. Clearly all these devotees acted as diksa gurus and accepted disciples. And Prabhupada orders his disciples to act on the same principle and states “This is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.” He also mentions the qualification: “everyone should become perfect Vaisnava.”
720518AR.LA Lectures
So we have got this message from Krsna, from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, from the six Gosvamis, later on, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura. And we are trying our bit also to distribute this knowledge. Now, tenth, eleventh, twelfth… My Guru Maharaja is tenth from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I am eleventh, you are the twelfth. So distribute this knowledge. People are suffering. They are simply fighting on some false thing, maya. They should be given the real fact of happiness.
Prabhupada again asserts the message is coming in disciplic succession and, as the Six Goswamis, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktsiddhanta and he himself have distributed the knowledge, he orders his disciples to distribute the knowledge in the same way. Prabhupada clearly states he is the eleventh link in the disciplic succession and he orders his disciples to “distribute this knowledge” and expects his disciples to become the twelfth link in the disciplic succession. He does not expect the disciplic succession to stop at the eleventh link!!!
68-12-03 Letter: Hamsaduta
Next January there will be an examination on this Bhagavad-gita. Papers will be sent by me to all centers, and those securing the minimum passing grade will be given the title as Bhakti-sastri. Similarly, another examination will be held on Lord Caitanya’s Appearance Day in February, 1970 and it will be upon Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. Those passing will get the title of Bhakti-vaibhava. Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program. So we should not simply publish these books for reading by outsiders, but our students must be well versed in all of our books so that we can be prepared to defeat all opposing parties in the matter of self-realization.
From this statement it is abundantly clear that Prabhupada’s mission from the very beginning was to educate his disciples so some of them would become qualified diksa gurus and initiate their own disciples. He wants to transfer the title of Bhaktivedanta and the power to preach and accept disciples to his disciples. He clearly states that “this is my program.” The qualification is there… One must pass the examination on all the books… “Our students must be well versed in all of our books so they are prepared to defeat all opposing parties in the matter of self-realization.”
Considering the statements of Srila Prabhupada quoted above and the hundreds of others along the same lines it is completely bizarre for Krishna Kant to claim: “There is no evidence of Srila Prabhupada issuing specific orders for his disciples to become diksa gurus.” It is the statement of a crazy fellow.
I expect Krishna Kant will come back with pages of nonsense meant to divert the readers attention from the points Srila Prabhupada has clearly established here and claim “I have defeated Madhudvisa.” But we will leave it to the thoughtful readers to decide who has actually been defeated.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Your servant
Madhudvisa dasa
About the Author
Madhudvisa dasa My first contact with a Hare Krishna was a most merciful Mataji in Oxford Street, London who sold me a "Higher Taste" cook book in 1984 while I was on holidays there. I started seriously reading Srila Prabhupada's books in Australia 1985 and by 1986 Srila Prabhupada had convinced me "Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead" and "we should surrender to Krishna." I joined the Hare Krishnas in Perth, Western Australia in 1986. Since then I have been chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, reading and distributing Srila Prabhupada's books and preaching as much as I can. That's my life and full-time occupation now really. I like it more than anything I've ever experienced before. Srila Prabhupada's books are so amazing... Even after reading them all many times they're still fresh and new. They are truly transcendental! That's it really. Now I'm just hankering to once again see the world chant Hare Krishna, dance and feast and float away in the ecstasy of Lord Caitanya's Sankirtana movement as it did in Srila Prabhupada's physical presence. Let the whole world drown in the ecstatic flood of love of Krishna!
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Dear Prabhu
I agree with you on the presentation of Final order. I also agree with your presentation of HDG Prabhupada’s quotes. For a simple mind it is clear that Prabhupada want his disciple to become Guru’s by qualifying to take that responsibilities. But it is also evident that – by the time Prabhupada was leave this material world, He is convinced that – none of his disciples are in a position to take-up that responsibilities (which has been evident since than) – and he setup a system of ritvik initiation. That is how I read it.
Exactly. Me too is how i see all this and have seen this way for years
I’m sorry your idea Madhudvisa trying to establish that Srila Prabhupada left diksa gurus. Srila Prabhupada left ritviks never left diksa gurus. The disciples have left out his orders and has taken the place of Srila Prabhuapda causing havoc in society spiritual and material. Why are you so much emphasis of the word diksa when Srila Prabhupada says that the word applies to both the siksa guru as diksa guru. Where are all these disciples who are qualified diksa gurus?
Hare Krishna Danudara Prabhu
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
I am absolutely not trying to establish that Srila Prabhupada left diksa gurus. That is an ISKCON lie. I am just pointing out that both ISKCON and the ritviks are lying when it comes to the guru issue which puts both sides into a compromised position and makes both sides of the argument useless.
This ISKCON lie that Prabhupada appointed diksa gurus is well and truly debunked and not even ISKCON would dare to claim that Prabhupada appointed any diksa gurus now. ISKCON openly admit that Prabhupada never appointed any diksa gurus. Tamal Krishna Goswami confirms that Prabhupada only ever appointed ritviks to initiate disciples on his behalf, that he never at any point of time appointed any diksa gurus:
“Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He didn’t appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus.” (from TKG’s Topanga Canyon Pyramid House Talks)
The GBC have now officially apologized to the devotees for their mistake in accepting the 11 ritviks appointed by Srila Prabhupada as ‘zonal acharyas’, as Prabhupada’s successors, so even the GBC will now not claim that Prabhupada appointed any diksa gurus.
Therefore at this point in time there is no one, not even in ISKCON, who are saying that Prabhupada ever appointed any diksa gurus. This idea is totally debunked and accepted by everyone as false, as a mistake, as a lie.
Prabhupada only ever appointed 11 ritvik priests and empowered them to accept disciples on his behalf, and he empowered the GBC to add extra ritviks when necessary. And they all knew that very well. That is confirmed in writing and signed by Srila Prabhupada in his July 9th, 1977 letter.
There are some fools in ISKCON that still lie that the July 9th letter was only for while Prabhupada was on the planet. But this is obviously false. On July 9th 1977 Prabhupada’s health was in such a critical condition that no one was expecting him to stay with us physically for very long. As far as the devotees knew Prabhupada may disappear on July 10th, so they were not at all concerned about how the initiations in ISKCON would go on during Srila Prabhupada’s presence… What they wanted to know is how the initiations in ISKCON would go on after Srila Prabhupada disappeared from our material vision. And Srila Prabhupada’s instructions in regard to this are very clearly given in his July 9th, 1977 letter.
The importance of this letter is greater than any other letter ever written by Srila Prabhupada. To underline the importance of this letter Srila Prabhupada ordered that it be sent to Ramesvara at the BBT and he instructed Ramesvara to print many copies of this July 9th letter and mail a copy to every temple and GBC member in ISKCON. There is probably no other letter from Srila Prabhupada which was ever duplicated in so many copies and mailed out to every temple and GBC in ISKCON.
To underline even further the fact that the July 9th letter is describing the system of initiations Prabhupada wants in ISKCON after he leaves his body Ramesvara duplicated and mailed out not just the July 9th letter, he stapeled it to Srila Prabhupadas last will, which obviously, like the July 9th letter, was related to how things would go on in ISKCON after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance. Ramesvara wrote a cover letter with the following introductory paragraph on July 11th, just two days after Prabhupada wrote his July 9th letter:
“Please accept my most humble obeisances in the dust of your feet. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I have just received some letters from Tamal Krishna Maharaja, and am enclosing herein two documents: 1) Srila Prabhupada’s final version of his last will, and 2) Srila Prabhupada’s initial list of disciples appointed to perform initiations for His Divine Grace. This initial list is also being sent to all centers.”
So you see Ramesvara is saying Prabhupada’s July 9th letter contains the “initial list of disciples appointed to perform initiations for His Divine Grace.” This is a list of ritviks who will accept disciples on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, not a list of diksa gurus!
That is why when Srila Prabhupada left his body in November but none of the new zonal acarayas accepted any of their own disciples until after the Jan-Feb 1978 BTG came out. They knew that Prabhupada had only appointed them as ritviks to accept disciples on his behalf… But at least some of them were not very satisfied with this…
Everything changed when Satsvarupa declared in his “Notes from the Editor — What Now?” in the Jan 1978 BTG:
“How then will ISKCON go on?…. during his last months in this world, Srila Prabhupada selected eleven senior disciples to act as initiating gurus who could accept disciples after his disappearance. In this way he insured the continuation of the parampara.”
So this was the first big ISKCON guru lie. Satsvarupa is talking about Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th letter in which Prabhupada states three times that the disciples will be his, not the disciples of the “ritvik representative of the acharya” who will perform the initiation ceremony, but here Satsvarpa tells a bold-face lie and informs the entire ISKCON devotee community through Back to Godhead magazine that, “Srila Prabhupada selected eleven senior disciples to act as initiating gurus who could accept disciples after his disappearance.” This is a lie. 100% bold faced lie. Prabhupada only ever appointed these 11 disciples as ritvik and only ever empowered them to accept disciples on his behalf.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Your servant
Madhudvisa dasa
ISKCON
INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS
Founder-Acharya: His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
July 9th, 1977
To All G.B.C., and Temple Presidents
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “rittik”-representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:
• His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
• His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
• His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
• His Holiness Tamala Krishna Gosvami
• His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
• His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
• His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
• His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
• His Holiness Harikesa Swami
• His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
• His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple.
After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done.
The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.
Hoping this finds you all well.
Your servant,
Tamala Krishna Gosvami
Secretary to Srila Prabhupada
Approved: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
[Srila Prabhupada’s signature appears on the original]
Why are you not including my comments.Please reply.Please,you’re the one person I’ve trusted.Please don’t disappoint me.Please reply.
Your helpless servant,
Santosh
Prabhu I can not answer all questions. I do not have the time. I pick a few and answer them. That is all I can do. So do not feel bad if I do not answer your questions. I am answering plenty of other questions and the subject matter is universal so those answers will be good for you also. If you put some nice humble, submissive questions and you really believe I am greater than you and can give you the correct answers then write. But if you do not think like that then what is the point of asking me questions?
Hare Krsna Madhudvisa. Why do you say you are greater than someone else. Surely we should all be humbler than the grass. Only Krsna is greater than us. We may be greater in our knowledge and understanding but we are not greater than other spirit souls. You have said yourself that everything is equal. All glories to the Supreme being..
If someone writes rubbish and I say it is rubbish what is the fault of that?
It is just exposing the truth.
yes I can see Srila Prabhupada wanted us all to become qualified but before He left He said no one is qualified……therefore not to take this qualification process cheaply and because we have taken cheaply….it is better to give up trying to be diksa when not qualified. Srila Prabhupada will continue looking after everyone who reads the pages of Bhagavad-gita and are sincerely following. All who come can go to Krsna by Srila Prabhupada taking care. Better to stick with that as it was going on like this just before He left His body and there does not have to be a mad scramble to proclaim diksa if those proclaiming are not qualified. If someone feels they cannot surrender to Srila Prabhupada without His physical presence then they should understand it is very dangerous to surrender to one not really qualified and who can only take a disciple up to His level of spiritual improvement.
Hare Krishna Mother Devaki dd
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Yes. Guru is not such a simple thing. One has to be very strong not just to take himself back home back to Godhead, but he has to also bring along with him a big batch of disciples. And often the disciples these days are big rascals who are performing all sorts of sinful activities that the guru has to suffer for because he can not even stick up to following the regulative principles and chanting at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra daily himself… So he can not actually inspire his disciples to follow either.
The whole thing is a disaster and the bogus guru takes all his bogus disciples to hell with him. If the guru is bogus then the disciples must also be bogus.
You are correct. Unless one is actually a pure devotee of Krishna he should not destroy his own life and the lives of his followers by posing as a guru and spiritual leader when he can not even control his own mind and senses… This nonsense has completely destroyed ISKCON.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
when one of us really become pure devotee. it will be jugath mangala.so instead fighting with arguments let us fight with the ignorance and ego that’s binding us from time in memorial. we all don’t need to be teachers . we are not even students, even when Prabhupada was here on the earth with us.behind all this opinions i see only egos. and self of those lost in the jungle of life times .as for a s the truth . no one will say no to any one who thinks Prabhupada is there guru. and if some one don’t like that, then its there ego . cause really think about it,who can stop u from thinking what u think. its our love that counts. we all are caught up in our complexities of our mind over millions of births. now Prabhupadha has shed some light on our lost poor soles. please understand that not a single one who argues are in the right state of mind.those who want to be gurus are not even devotees of there guru.1st and the for most thing is let us chant Hari name non stop till we die . That should be the goal . Then we will see what Krishna wants and it will be don. Why is it so important to get what you want in this life,if you really know ,understood and felt the pain of whats going on to your poor sole for millions of life times,u would never care for all this in this life time.and for those of you who think its the love for your gurus that makes you to fight or ague to prove your guru . that is stupid. its your ego. and if your guru knows that you are arguing and even then he allows you to fight and argue with others to prove that he is great, then he too is a fool. that’s why all this bull is going on.please please just chant till you all die. just chant till u die.chant till we all die.It will salve all the problems. There is so much we don’t know and yet we think we are so important.we will keep coming back and back and back. 1st let stop this, by chanting. then you can always com back to shed light on us, cause you have seen the truth. you will not have to argue. Shiva is my father and Maya is my mother.Krishna is my lover and Radha is my hero.i will chant i will chant i will chant and enjoy and enjoy and dance in every temple i can get my foot into till i die. i have danced with most of you but you don’t know. and i don’t care for u to know.cause i don’t care for any thing any more.why should i?i am happy.every thing is perfect.vasu davam sarvam ithim.jay prabhupadha and all those who give prabhupadha abhishake in there homes.
Even if we accept your some of the point you make Madhudvisa the biggest point that you and many who agree with you fail to speak about is this!
Were they meant to become diksa guru within Srila Prabhupada’s Society?
A simple yes or no please!
Bhakta Bob
Hare Krishna Bhakta Bob
The clear answer that everyone can see now is no, they were not appointed as diksa gurus within Prabhuapda’s society.
That we can know for a fact because now all these so-called paramahamsa’s are all gone and there is nothing to show from their preaching work except a big mess.
But Prabhupada wants his disciples to become actually qualified diksa gurus… That is his mission…
A pure devotee does what Krishna wants him to do. So the best thing is we should become pure devotees by following and serving Srila Prabhuapda and do what Krsihna wants us to do, and that is up to Krishna.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Radhe Radhe
Wonder how many of you actually seek Krishna.
There is hardly any mention of him in your comments.
Oh Ravi, Prabhu, Ji, no no, no –
All these discussions ARE Krsna, they are none different, look at the subject matters, all to do with ,
‘what is the best way to execute devotional service’
You seem to misunderstand Krsna and his devotees, they are none different,
we are all the seperated out parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, all connected through the Supersoul residing in the heart, and now,
THE INTERNET, LOL
do not misunderstand these posts as not seeking Krsna, if anything they reaffirm the search for Krsna – after all, devotees are quite well famed for searching for the SUPREME ABSOLUTE TRUTH..
and that is what the debate is, the search for Supreme Truth…
and what is the first stanza of the Vedas –
“Now I have attained this Human platform of life, it is my DUTY to inquire into WHAT is the Nature of the SUPREME ABSOLUTE TRUTH!”
so it is as it is…
ps,
HARE KRSNA!!! pls chant and be happy xxx
ys
Nila
But for those of us who came late in the ISKCON saga, what now? How does one receive diksha? I dearly love Srila Prabhupada and would happily accept diksha from a qualified disciple, if there are any outside of ISKCON…
Don’t worry so much about receiving formal diksa. Try to become a real devotee, a qualified disciple, and then Krishna will make the arrangement when He feels it is the right time that you can take diksa. So please study Srila Prabhuapda’s books and put into practice what you read in your life.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Hello Bhakta Matt. There are many disciple all over the world who are performing the formal ceremonies for diksa on behalf of Srila Prabhupada your real diksa is coming from jnana knowledge. When you accept Srila Prabhupada books and instructions and serious begin to follow that is the real diksa. So wherever you are located you can do a formal fire sacrifice most anywhere. In Alachua here we have done many
Hare Krishna Mother Devaki
Your answer misses the main point. You say ‘real diksa is coming from jnana knowledge’. That is not correct. Initiation does not come from jnana, knowledge. Initiation means the beginning. So there is no requirement for jnana for diksa. Jnana is absolutely not the qualification of diksa. Diksa means initiation. So the disciple has to be qualified and the spiritual master has to be qualified. Otherwise there will be no diksa, no matter how many fire sacrifices you want to hold.
Srila Prabhupada is a pure devotee of Krishna. There is no question of that. So Srila Prabhupada’s qualifications are perfect.
But if one wants to accept Srila Prabhupada as his spiritual master then that means Srila Prabhupada has to accept him as a disciple. And we know that the standards Srila Prabhupada sets for disciples are they have to be chanting at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra every day, they have to be strictly following the four regulative principles: no illicit sex, no meat eating, no gambling and no intoxication, and the need to have been doing this without fail for at least six months. And generally speaking they have to be living in one of Srila Prabhupada’s temples and serving under the direction of one of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. And the authorized devotee, temple president or whatever, they are serving under has to vouch for them. They have to confirm the devotee is actually surrendered and serving nicely and is really actually chanting at least 16 rounds every day and really strictly following the four regulative principles and is really going out with the daily Sankirtan parties and really is distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books.
New devotees require training. It is not that one can just imaging he is taking initiation from Srila Prabhupada. One can not just imaging he is a doctor and start practicing medicine… No. One has to undergo the training in the authorized colleges and pass the examination and have an internship, etc, etc,..
So taking initiation from Srila Prabhupada is not so simple as you suggest. Srila Prabhupada does not accept cheap disciples. He accepts the surrendered souls. If one is not actually perpared to completely surrender to Srila Prabhupada then he is not going to get initiated by Srila Prabhupada. The actual real diksa does not come from jnana as you mistakenly state, it becomes possible by the full surrender of the disciple at the lotus feed of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It is only possible if the disciple is prepared to make Srila Prabhupada’s mission the mission of his life.
There are so many stars and only one moon. Prabhupada wants a few moon-like disciples. Not many useless stars who have no power whatsoever to spread any meaningful illumination.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Radhe Radhe Prabhu,
just a little question….
I know what you wanna tell us and its all clear for me. But you said “Srila Prabhupada does not accept cheap disciples”. OK…. it makes sense. But how is it possible, that Gurudeva had about 10.000 disciples, before he left his body? Not everyone of them was qualificated. But he accepted them.
So whats the difference between the past and now in your opinion?
(The question of the importance of initiation has been accompanying me for years, especially what to do, if you doing your bhakti-yoga completely alone).
Hare Krishna and
best regards
Hare Krishna Ananda
All the disciples Srila Prabhupada accepted in his physical presence had to pass very serious tests to be accepted as Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. If he wanted, if he made it very cheap, Prabhupada could have had millions of disciples. But he did not want millions of cheap disciples. He would have preferred to have only one sincere disciple rather than millions of cheap disciples.
For Srila Prabhupada to accept someone as a disciple he had to be living in one of his temples under the authority of one of his Temple Presidents and the Temple President had to confirm to Srila Prabhupada that this aspiring disciple had been living in the temple for at least 6-12 months and was very steady and fixed up in chanting at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra every day, getting out of bed before 4:00 AM to attend Mangal Aroti, going out on the Sankirtan Party and chanting Hare Krishna and distribution his books every day, etc.
So this is the standard for being accepted as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and all 10,000 disciples Prabhupada initiated in his physical presence had the approval of a Temple President and the Temple President indicated to Srila Prabhupada that the disciples were doing these things. There were some wrong recommendations, where devotees who were not up to the standard for initiation were recommended.
Of course Prabhupada will accept any surredered soul. But the problem is we don’t want to surrender. We don’t want to be bothered to take the 2-3 hours every day to chant Hare Krishna, we don’t want to be bothered to get out of bed before 4:00 AM every morning, we don’t want to surrender. But we want to have some spiritual name and pretend to be a devotee. That is the disease. It is called sahajaism, taking things very cheaply. These cheap unsurrendered devotees are not and will never be disciples of Srila Prabhupada.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
aloha,
I personally saw written documents stating that the “Gurus” were to become a “governing body” of Srila Prabhupada’s Trust he left behind for all. They were to act as a group, not as individuals. Like the Supreme Court, no pun intended! To interpret the law as appropriate to time and circumstance.
They were to act as teachers of Vedic Philosophy and to help others to become devotees of Lord Krishna. Only in Srila Prabhupadas’ name could they make devotees. As Srila Prabhupadas’ devotees, not theirs. They were there mostly to keep the Trust going. J.
after reading all of the excuses that devotees give for APPOINTING/VOTING in unqualified gurus..I wonder how they miss points like the one im about to submit as stated by Srila Prabhupada..For myself i do not need any other proof than this as to what Srila Prabhupada wanted,,,so here it is;;; letter from Srila Prabhupada. ‘So it is becoming very expensive to send so many sets of beads ,such long distance, and it has been little bothersome to me also,so i think now you may be APPOINTED by ME to give first initiation to new disciples by chanting on their beads on MY behalf. In america kirtananda swami is doing that . So now if there are two of you that will give me great releif. Kirtanananda will chant on the beads for new devotees in america,canada, like that ; you can chant on the beads for the european continents new disciples. THEY SHALL OF COURSE BE CONSIDERED AS MY DISCIPLES ,NOT THAT THEY SHALL BECOME YOUR DISCIPLES BUT YOU WILL BE EMPOWERED BY ME TO CHANT ON THEIR BEADS AND THAT IS THE SAME EFFECT OF BINDING MASTER AND DISCIPLE AS IF I WERE PERSONALLY CHANTING. They may continue to send me the letters of request along with the presidents recommendation , and i shall give them a name and it will be entered by my secretary in our records. I will send my letter of reply to you and you will purchase beads there and chant on them and send,along with my letter to the new initiates..Is that alright? Ishall continue to deal with the matter of second initiations . The sacred threads do not require so much postage to send airmail. [SPL to Revatinandana,January 4, 1973].
“I wish that each and every Branch shall keep their independent identity and cooperate keeping the Acarya in the centre. On this principle we can open any number of Branches all over the world. The Ramakrishna mission works on this principle and thus as organization they have done wonderfully.”SPletter to Kirtanananda 67-02-11
A few relevant quotes, to back up my letter; Haribol!
Srila Prabhupada; “All of my disciples will take the legacy. If you want, you can also take it. Sacrifice everything. I–one–may soon pass away. But they are hundreds, and this movement will increase. It’s not that I’ll give an order: “Here is the next leader.” Anyone who follows the previous leadership is a leader… All of my disciples are leaders, as much as they follow purely. If you want to follow, you can also lead. But you don’t want to follow. Leader means one who is a first class disciple. Evam param parapraptam. One who follows is perfect.” (SP BTG Vol. 13, No. 1-2)
April 22.77. Prabhupada: People complained against [a GBC for trying to appear as a guru]. …You become guru, but you must be QUALIFIED FIRST of all. THEN you become. …What is the use of producing some RASCAL GURU?
Tamala Krishna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all condiioned souls, so we CANNOT be gurus. Maybe someday it may be possible….
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Tamala Krishna: …but not now.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I SHALL SAY who is guru, ‘NO you become acharya, You become authorized.’
I retire completely. But the training must be COMPLETE.
Tamala Krishna: The process of purification must be there. …No rubber stamp.
Prabhupada: You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gaudiya Matha. Everyone wanted to be guru. A small temple and “guru.” What kind of guru?
Srila Prabhupada: We haven’t got to manufacture. To manufacture ideas is troublesome. Why should we take the trouble? And as soon as you want to manufacture something to my…., that is DANGEROUS. …That you are singing every day, “what our guru has said, that is our life and soul.” …As soon as this POISON will come -suppress guru and I become Brahman- everything FINISHED. Spiritual life is finished. Gaudiya Matha finished, …VIOLATED the orders of Guru Maharaja.
…And as soon as you manufacture, fall down. This manufacturing idea is very, very dangerous in spiritual life. …Our mission is to serve bhakta visesa and live with devotees. NOT THAT YOU TAKE THE PLACE OF GURU. THAT IS NONSENSE, VERY DANGEROUS. Then everything will be spoiled. As soon as you become AMBITIOUS to TAKE THE PLACE of GURU-gurusuh nara matih. That is MATERIAL DISEASE.
Thank you! Tamoharadasa (not the GBC)
Prabhujis; Pamho. AGTSP!
We have likely all heard the arguments back and forth. But what did Srila Prabhupada actually DO? We can argue until the cows come home, based on quotes, and no conclusions. Srila Prabhupada set up a ritvik system, he recognized no one as potential diksa guru at the time. The proof, is that I would say at least ten out of the eleven initial so-called self-proclaimed gurus, all fell into heavy maya. So, they were unqualified, as Srila Prabhupada clearly knew, and he acted accordingly. Is it not? Even when someone actually qualified appears, such as Gour Govinda Swami Thakura, the GBC simply abused him and called him a trouble maker. When GGM lay on the floor and asked the assembled GBC to come and beat him for his offenses, none dared to move.
It is clear to the thinking person that the only right thing then, is to continue with the ritvik system. Let those really qualfied, and who have a strong wish to do so, on Krsna’s real order, go out and form their own organizations, which is just WHAT Srila Prabhupada DID.
Caitanya Caritamrta warns not to take disciples, in Prabhupada’ s purports. But he also advises all to act as guru. How is this possible? Is it not self contradictory? No, it is not, when you understand that all are to represent Krsna As He Is; this is a siksa function! All can do! It seems few understand that there is a siksa and a diksa guru possible. We can all be siska from any position, of varying qualities. This explanatrion resolves the paradox, so it must be taken as correct. It ALSO jives with Srila Prabhupada’s actually ACTIVITES.
So, all those currently residing in Prabhupada’s temples and dictating to their Godbrothers, and in turn being dictated to by rubber-stampers, should be aware that they are in violtaion of sadhu and sastra. Sastra says only utthama adhikaris are acceptable, and they should never be in a position to be corrected by others. Srila Prbhupada left Gaudiya Maths. It is simple for the simple, but complicated by all the excuses of the duplicitous. HK
YS Tamoharadasa (ACBSP)
Are you the Tamohar in GBC? You must be a different Tamohar. Lol
Once I sent a mail to Krishna Kantha and asked why Srila Prabhupada describes the qualities and characteristics of a guru throughout his books. His answer was as follows: Srila Prabhupada was giving us a knowledge about guru so that we can recognize a true guru in him (SP).
According to Krishna Kantha while writing his books Srila Prabhupada was thinking about himself and while making statement about qualities and characteristics of a guru he was intending to point out himself alone.
In this way Krishna Kantha is doing more harm than good to His Divine Grace.
Ahinsra das