The Indian Caste System
Although many Hindus subscribe to the belief that one is born into a certain caste this belief is not supported by their scriptures. The caste system in India has degenerated into a system falsely recognizing men born in Brahmin families as Brahmins, even though they don’t exhibit the qualities of Brahmins. This has caused so many problems.
“Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy.
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness–these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.
“Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the ksatriyas.
“Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labor and service to others.
“By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.
“By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, a man can attain perfection through performing his own work.
“It is better to engage in one’s own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another’s occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one’s nature are never affected by sinful reactions.” (From Bhagavad-gita 18th chapter)
So the Vedas recognize different people have different skills and qualifications, but it is no by birth, it is by guna [qualification] and karma [work]. So if someone born of a sudra [worker] father becomes qualified [guna] and works as [karma] a brahmana he should be accepted as a brahmana… In the same way if the son of a brahmana doesn’t have the qualifications of a brahmana or work as a brahmana then he is not a brahmana. There are so many examples of this in the Vedic scriptures.
The current Indian system is something like accepting the sons of supreme court judges as supreme court judges… It’s nonsense. They have to be qualified, they have to attend the university and pass the course, then they have to work under a qualified judge and get the practical experience, then they may be able to become supreme court judges…
So there is actually nothing stopping anyone from bettering his position in the Indian system in the scriptures… But also there is no need for everyone to strive to be supreme court judges. Anyone, from any social position can be liberated by performing his own work…
You have the same system in America. You have intellectuals [brahmanas], you have administrators and military men [ksatriyas], you have businessmen and farmers [vaisyas] and you have workers. The Vedic system just recognizes these groups, that’s all. It’s quite natural.
rsjames@husc7.harvard.edu (Rajesh James) wrote:
>A question (no offense intended). I am familiar with the idea of the caste
>system as traditionally practiced: the child of a Brahmin being a Brahmin
>himself, the child of a Kshatriya a Kshatriya, etc. This system, while
>perhaps not compatible with present political sensibilities, at least had
>two points in its favor.
>1) It is logically consistent. Although I certainly cannot prove that a
> sudra, for instance, arrived at his present situation in life as a
> consequence of his actions in past lives, once I make the assumption
> that reincarnation functions as the system implies it does, the
> system does not exhibit any glaring logical inconsistencies.
It is true that on takes his birth according to his previous karma [activities] so one gets birth in a Brahmin’s family because of his past activities. So mostly the son of a Brahman has the potential to become a Brahmin. But it requires training. And it requires the Brahman father to be actually a qualified Brahmin… But in any case the training and the proper observation of the samskaras [purificatory ceremonies] is required… It’s not automatic at birth as is generally accepted now.
prapya punya-krtam lokan
usitva sasvatih samah
sucinam srimatam gehe
yoga-bhrasto ‘bhijayate
“The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy.” (Bhagavad-gita 6.41)
These days, in Kali-yuga, the samskaras are generally not performed or not properly performed and the gurukuls, the training schools for the boys, are no longer in operation… So there is generally no training and also no purificatory ceremonies… So these sons of Brahmins who have no brahminical training have to be called “dvija-bandhus” or friends of the Brahmins… Unless they actually have the qualities of Brahmins and work as Brahmins they can’t be called a Brahmin. You may even be qualified as a lawyer educationally but if you don’t practice, if you don’t work as a lawyer, no one will accept you as a lawyer.
The qualities of a Brahmin are given in the Bhagavad-gita:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness–these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bhagavad-gita 18.42)
>2) It is practicable. It is immediately apparent who belongs to what caste.
> If my father belongs to a given caste, I know that that caste is my own.
Yes. That is there. But because one’s father is a supreme court judge one is not automatically a supreme court judge… He may have a good opportunity to become one. His father can help him, all the reference books are in his house, he is hearing about the law all the time… But he has to become qualified, he has to go to school, study the books, pass the exams, work as an apprentice under a qualified judge… If you just let any son of any supreme court judge sit in the supreme court that would be the end of the supreme court…
If someone, on the other hand, has a businessman as his father but he develops an interest in the law, attends the university, passes the exams, etc. If he develops the qualities and works as a lawyer, then one has to accept him as a lawyer, even though his father is a businessman. It is his guna [qualities] and karma [work] that are important, not his birth.
>Some individuals have said the traditional system is in fact a perversion
>of the idea of caste. Caste is instead a reflection of one’s intrinsic
>abilities and/or inclinations. In such a system, is caste any more
>meaningful than the idea that we all fit in some fashion into the divine
>plan? Is caste useful any longer as an organizing principle for society?
Yes. There are three modes of material nature, [goodness, passion and ignorance] and everyone of us is associating with material nature in a certain way. It is that mixture of our association with the modes of nature that determines our “caste”. It is undobutedly influenced by our parents guna and karma, but we can change it… One in the mode of goodness is a Brahmin, one in the mode of passion is a ksatriya, one in the mixed modes of passion and ignorence is a vishya and one in the mode of ignorance is a sudra. This system is everywhere, even in America. Unless it is recognized social interaction and the smooth running of a society become very difficult. It is true that certain people are suited to performing certain tasks… Someone has a very good brain, he can think analytically very nicely, so he can advise the government, he can be a judge in a court of law…
But if you put someone with no brain and little analytical thinking ability in that position he will not be very successful… Society will suffer…
This is one of the main problems in our society now [both in India and in the US]… No one knows who is who and so many jobs which should be being performed by Brahmins and ksatriyas are being done by sudras… It is said kalo sudra sambhavah, “In the age of Kali everyone is a sudra.” So it is a very difficult time. Mostly people are sudras, there may be a few vaisyas [businessmen] but almost no ksatriyas or Brahmins… This is the problem. We are not training them. The intelligent people are available, but instead of training them as Brahmins and ksatriyas we are training them as technologists. But these are sudra jobs…
>Furthermore, is there any restriction on my declaring myself to be whichever
>cast I wish to be? Is there any authority which can bar any person from
>declaring himself a Brahmin? If everyone chooses to adopt the “highest”
>caste, has the idea become a meaningless concept?
This is the biggest problem! Every sudra wants to be called a Brahmin! But they don’t want to follow the principals of brahminical life. In the Vedic age it was the kings duty to see that everyone claiming to be a Brahmin was qualified in terms of guna [qualities] and karma [work]. This safety mechanism has to be there otherwise unqualified “Brahmins” will spoil everything… It has happened in India so now many Indians want to get rid of the caste system altogether, because it has become a system being used by a few to exploit the others… But it is better to correct the system than throw it out. But where are the qualified Brahmins? That is the difficulty… So we should start training some. Srila Prabhupada wanted us to start “Varnasrama Colleges” to train Brahmins and ksatriyas… but it has not happened yet… But these colleges hold the key to the success of society in the future.
varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman
visnur aradhyate pantha nanyat tat-tosa-karanam
“The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshipped by the propper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama. There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One must be situated in the institution of the four varnas and asramas.” (Visnu Purana 3.8.9)
But one also has to consider:
dharmah svanusthitah pumsam visvaksena-kathasu yah
notpadayed yadi ratim srama eva he kevalam
“The occupational activities a man performs according to his own position are only so much useless labour if they do not provoke attraction for the message of the Personality of Godhead.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.8)
All things considered, Kali-yuga is a very difficult time for spiritual life and there are many faults. If despite all the faults we chant the holy names of the Lord (Hare Krishna Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare) then everything will be perfect…
hare nama hara nama hare namiava kevalam
kalau nasty eva nastya eva nastya eva gatir anyatha
“In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is the chanting of the Holy Names of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.”
Thank you. Hare Krishna!
Madhudvisa dasa
MORE INFORMATION ON THE CASTE SYSTEM
About the Author
Madhudvisa dasa My first contact with a Hare Krishna was a most merciful Mataji in Oxford Street, London who sold me a "Higher Taste" cook book in 1984 while I was on holidays there. I started seriously reading Srila Prabhupada's books in Australia 1985 and by 1986 Srila Prabhupada had convinced me "Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead" and "we should surrender to Krishna." I joined the Hare Krishnas in Perth, Western Australia in 1986. Since then I have been chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, reading and distributing Srila Prabhupada's books and preaching as much as I can. That's my life and full-time occupation now really. I like it more than anything I've ever experienced before. Srila Prabhupada's books are so amazing... Even after reading them all many times they're still fresh and new. They are truly transcendental! That's it really. Now I'm just hankering to once again see the world chant Hare Krishna, dance and feast and float away in the ecstasy of Lord Caitanya's Sankirtana movement as it did in Srila Prabhupada's physical presence. Let the whole world drown in the ecstatic flood of love of Krishna!
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If Brahmins, Shudras, Vaishyas, and Kshatriyas all came from different parts of the Purusha’s body, doesn’t that mean everyone in their lineages are all tied to that body part? This would support the claim that caste is indeed based on birth.
Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita that He has created four types of men based on guna and karma. So Guna means qualities and karma means work. So this is Krishna’s instructions, division is bases on qualities and work, not birth. There are so many examples of different types appearing in different families. So the point is we have to believe Krishna, not speculate like you are doing.
What is caste ?
Telling I am superior you are not superior. This is bullshi* . All are humans. Brahmins now work under all other so caste. Then Brahmins are Shudras now according to the caste.
Ok Brahmins do puja to Krishna right ?
Ok Krishna is from Yadu dynasty, then being superior why do you pray to Krishna from Yadu dynasty ?
Before all caste is the humanity, first be human then thats the puja you give to universal power that is god.
atma ie self is brahaman as such everyone is brahaman
Yes. Everyone is brahman. That is true. But Krishna is para-brahman. There is a difference. Not in quality, but in quantity. It is like Krishna is the ocean and we are a tiny drop of the ocean. So the substance is the same but the quantity is vastly different. So even though we are brahman and Krishna is brahman we are not the same as Krishna.
Saying we are the same as Krishna is like saying the drop of water is the same as the ocean. Which is of course incorrect. There is billions of tons of water in the ocean but not even a gram of water in a drop… There is no comparison at all. Of course you can understand a lot about the composition of the ocean by studying the drop. There is salt in the drop, and there is salt in the ocean. But the quantity of salt in the drop is very different from the quantity of salt in the ocean. So the drop is not the same as the ocean…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
atma in eveveryone is brahman then para braman fianally param brahman ie paramatma never born / dies
Yes. We are the same substance as Krishna, brahman. As Krishna is never born and never dies so we also are never born and never die. It is only because we misidentify with the material bodies that we currently find ourselves trapped in that we think we are born and that we die. But we are never born and never die.
Buddha was Hindu. The principles and teachings of Buddhism are a simplification of Hindu beliefs.
Please know what you are talking about before you open your mouth and spread ignorance.
Buddhism and Hinduism are very different in that Hinduism accepts the existence of God as a person, or some Hindus do not accept God as a person but they accept the impersonal brahman effulgence, something supreme and spiritual, whereas Buddhists are athiests who do not believe in God or Brahman. They believe in Nrvana, nothingness. There whole goal is nothingness. They think that everything is a source of suffering and the only escape is to cease to exist. However this quest of the Buddhists to cease to exist will always be frustrated. Because the living entities exist eternally and the eternal nature of the living entities is to serve the supreme living entity, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna.
So it is very ignorant to say that the principles of Buddhism are a simplification of Hindu beliefs.
Buddha is an incarnation of Krishna. But what Buddha preached is not at all ‘Hinduism’. It is voidism. It is in a way similar to what Sankacharaya preached. So in a sense there is not much difference between today’s Hindus who are mostly following Sankacharaya and the Buddhists. The difference is the Buddhists are trying to cease to exist and the Hindus are trying to also cease to exist as individuals by entering into the Brahman effulgence.
Both the modern Hindus and the Buddhists are bewildered and are not on the true spiritual path. You can find the true spiritual path by reading Srila Prabhupada’s books and by chanting Hare Krishna.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
West is a better place to be.
India is underdeveloped and Hinduism is a pagan religion with sati and untouchability a major existing practise.
Turn to Budhism or Christianity but do not try to undertsand this religion of ignorance and illiterates who are the basis of all evil in society.
Hi. I’m doing a project on the Caste System and would like to use the picture of the four Varnas that you used. In order to cite it, I need to know the title and author, so do you have this information? If not, where did you find the image?
It comes from Bhagavad-Gita As It Is by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Hello,
If caste is not determined by birth, can you show me a Hindu who is not born into a caste.
In Bhagavad-gita Krishna describes the Varnasrama system, which is where the idea of the Indian caste system came from, and He says catur varnam maya srstam guna karma vibhagasa, “I have created these four varnas [or castes] and everyone belongs to one of these castes according to his guna [qualities] and his karma [work].
So according to the sastra caste is not determined by birth. Caste is determined by guna [qualites] and karma [work]. And if you read the eighteenth chapter of Bhagavad-gita [which you can read at http://prabhupadabooks.com/bg/18%5D you will find that Krishna describes there very completely the qualities and work of the four different castes.
So a brahmana is a person who posses the qualities of a brahmana and who works as a brahmana. He is not a person who has a brahmana as his father.
This ‘caste by birth’ is completely insane. Your qualities and your work are not determined by your parents. Everyone is an individual. People who have the qualities of sudras take birth from brahmana fathers, and people who have brahminical qualities take birth from sudra fathers. So the caste of the father means nothing. We have to see what are the qualities and what is the work of the son. That is what will determine the caste of the son…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
jiva is atman and part of parmatman/parambrahman who constucted sristi. HE is ajar amar ie never born nor dies.accordinglly jiva/atman does not want die but changes.costume,no one is high or low by caste/varna but human/animal/bird/plant. Based on actions atman/jiva get reward/regard/respect. Any way of living or religion misguiding or befooling people otherwise enjoying at the sweat of some one his/her atman shall pay off in next costume. all human be equal and justice to prevail for REAL SAT YUG.
i i am ajay, today i downloaded my vedic horoscope from astrobix.com, there it is clearly mentioned that i belong to shudra varna. to understand about varna system, i studied about it in these websites:-
1) https://krishna.org/the-indian-caste-system/
2) http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Vedic_astrology_reveals_whether_one_has_been_born_in_the_vipra-varna,_ksatriya-varna,_vaisya-varna_or_sudra-varna,_according_to_the_three_qualities_of_material_nature
i came to know that, a person can be called a brahmin, kshatriya,vaishya or shudra based on his inherant qualities but not by his birth. as per the above given websites, a person who has inclination towards spirituality, interested to learn about scriptures and folllow dharma is a brahmin.
i have that inclination, then how as per vedic astrology i can be called as shudra?
as per vedic astrology, i am a shudra, but my parents are brahmins. and i have a lot of inclination towards spirituality, i can easiely chant sanskrit mantras. then as per those qualities, i am a brahmin. how can i be a shudra then?
Hare Krishna Ajay
It is true that different people have different inclinations depending on their bodies. But that tendency is not by birth. So it makes no difference what sort of family you were born in. The actual important thing is guna, which means qualities and karma, which means the sort of work you are doing. If you are actually a brahmana you will have the qualities of a brahmana which are mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita:
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness–-these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bhagavad-gita 18.42)
So if you are a brahmana you will have these qualities, if you do not have these qualities you are not a brahmana.
And the work of a brahmana is of six types: to worship the Lord and to engage others in worshiping the Lord, to study the scriptures and teach the scriptures to others and to accept charity and to distribute charity. These are the six types of work performed by a brahmana. So if you are doing something else apart from these six types of work you are not a brahmana.agr
Most importantly a brahmana never accepts the service of others. He is the servant of his spiritual master and Krishna. So a brahmana will never accept the occupation of a sudra. These days practically everyone is working as a sudra, so practically everyone is a sudra. If you have a job and you work for a boss for example you are a sudra. The brahmanas will never accept service like this. They can, in the case of an emergency, work as a ksatriya or as a vaishya, because a ksatriya has some land and he taxes the people who live on that land so he has an independent income, and a vaishya is an agriculturist with some land which he cultivates and produces crops and sells them, so he also has his own independent source of income. But a sudra is not independent in this way. He must find some master, some boss, and surrender to that boss and serve him. A brahmana will never do this. So if you are doing this then you are a sudra.
In reality in the Kali-yuga everyone is born a sudra and the only practical way for anyone to raise themselves above the sudra platform is by chanting:
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
It is not so important to get overly concerned about your position in the varnasrama society as currently the system in the society is so mixed up and the time is so unfavorable that it is very difficult to revive this original Vedic system of varnasrama. The process for this age is sankirtan, chanting the Hare Krishna mantra. So…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Namaksaar Madhudvisa dasa,
I believe that the real meaning of Varna is inner qualities of a person. In old days, a person can be born in any family but he could do any work based on his education, liking, ability, training, knowledge and attitude. Later on the upper three classes Brahmin (teachers and educated) , Kshatriya (Rules and Kings) and Vaishya (Business class) who were small in numbers decided rules for the society to keep masses uneducated so that they will serve the upper three classes forever. All three upper classes wanted to preserve their domain, power and privileges. Vaishya paid the money to write the rules to Brahmins, The Kshatriya implemented the rules using power. The Knigs also received money from Vaishya (Business class). Brahmin themselves did not have money or power to implement any rules.
Even today, Business class (Vaishyas) pay money to knowledge class (Professors, experts, lawyers, etc.) to write laws. The ruling class/politicians (Kshatriyas) implement those rules. Most of the rules are to keep masses ignorant and make access to education very difficult.
Only time and names are changed. The same class system is still in place. Rich and Educated will always keep masses uneducated and poor to protect their own interests and privileges.
Hare Krishna Prabhu
Yes. You are correct. According to Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita the caste that a person belongs to is determined by his qualities [guna] and work [karma]. It is absolutely not determined by his birth [jati].
As you have observed the current Indian caste system has been taken over by a group of people who want to monopolize the positions of power in society for their family members and use the caste system to exploit the other members of the society. But it is not meant to be like this. Today you will find those claiming to be brahmanas do not exhibit the actual qualities of brahmins that Krishna describes in the Eighteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita. This means they do not have the guna, the qualities of a brahmana, so they are not brahmanas.
Also the work of a brahmana is six things: patan patan, yajna yagan, dhana pratigrha sat karma. These are the six kinds of work a brahmana performs. It means studying the Vedas and teaching others the Vedas, performing yajna, sacrifice or worshiping in the temple, and engaging others in yajna and temple worship, and accepting charity and distributing charity. So if one is not working in these six ways he is not a brahmana. To be a brahmana one has to have the qualities of a brahmana and be working as a brahmana.
Today you hear in India of the ‘brahmanas working for Microsoft’ for example. But it is a very strong principle of a brahmana that he will never accept the service of someone else. His income must be independent. So if someone is working for Microsoft for example, then we know immediately he is not a brahmana.
So the current Indian caste system is a completely distorted and perverted reflection of the actual Varnasrama system described by Krishna in the Bhagavad=gita. The current caste system is very wrong and has done a great deal of damage to India and to the world.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Earlier Brahmins used to assert their superiority, and now SC/ST/OBCs get reservations. I wonder what those casteist Brahmins will have to say about that!! The Constitution of India has been framed by a so-called Dalit (pledging for equality), so why does caste exist even today?
caste system exists even today because the constitution has only been kept up to the book it has not been put into implementation for securing rights of downtrodden.
Hare Krishna Sravan
The caste system [no by birth as it is currently followed in India but by quality and work] exists eternally everywhere. It will always exist everywhere. It is created by Krishna and can not be changed.
Everywhere you will find an intelectual class [the brahmanas], a ruling / administartive class [the ksatriyas], a productive class [farmers, businessmen] and a worker class [surdras].
This ‘caste system’ is eternal and from the material point of view everyone belongs to one of these four classes. Everyone is not equal, there are different types of people and different types of people properly engaged in different types of occupation are essential for the proper functioning of any society.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
O, Lord Krishna,My father, I cry before you that you said truth in geethai and half Caste hindus understood in some other way and tortured your children in name of caste for many hundreds of years and it is still followed in many parts of INDIA. Please understand hindu caste people that every one is born with soul which is son of god and it is eternal.It means no birth or death for soul.Life of soul existed before creating this entire universe as per bible,geeta and many other holy scriptures.Further human character is based on four qualities such as like earth,water,air and light and it was said in the same meaning in geetha also.Any one can awakened and realize the CREATOR and any person can travel in the above said four qualities and anyone can become awakened soul if krishna consciousness is developed . GOD BLESS YOU.
First of all Why dividing.
Try explaining this to a Caste politicians in out country.
What ever things you mentioned was never put into usage in indian society. People accept their Caste based their birth.
Well I think it makes sense to say we should work based on our ability. I don’t think this possible to say one person can be a scientist, administrator, businessman, farmer, artisan, labourer all at once. We all have different abilities. So we just need to use them in God’s service effectively. God does not want hatred for anyone. Hatred, envy are all products of our ignorance. Hope this helps. Just wanted to share whatever little I know for everyone’s, including my learning.
Look I don’t want to mess with anyone here. So if people hate this don’t mind it but If you are not from any caste and you are only a indian then I think that you are a true person. The caste is made up of 5 words in english and 4 words in hindi whoever had made it deserved to die. This is the most f***ing system ever made. We all are same. God had given life to all of us then what is the difference. Actually there is no difference its our mind which says that we are different except some people in indian villages all are wreckless, mindless and f***ing shits cause I thing that almost 70% of the people in villages follow caste system. If any one of you feel angry then sorry but I know that whatever I am saying is Right
I agree with you bro.
haveing vast povety is cruel not natural
all indians are equal no castes free people.
All these arguments of yours. The young one of a fox is definitely a fox(devil), karma is complicated and depends on circumstance. A fox may appear if you count karma like a saint.
Brahmins descended from a tribe of Indo-Aryans but when they mated with women of other tribes and started to call their sons brahmins the blood got corrupted. A Brahmin is born with saintly qualities. Not all sons of a brahmin are brahmins. Even a devil can be born to a Brahmin, it depeneds on the female he mated with. I think identification can be done on the basis of DNA tests.
I am a true brahmin, and have all those qualities.Also I am very pleasing in appearence and I am sure a DNA test will confirm that I am a pure descendent of the Indo-Aryans.
mr. Prasad, ur an absolute idiot who dreams to be pure. How on earth do u say that oly indo aryans are pure and the rest are not so. If so why do u live with us, non indo aryans. Go to the place u were from, Vaiguda or andaguda. V don need ur biased god to judge us. U seem to have perceptions that u are pure god’child and rest or nt. Im sayin in ur face, if that is the case v don need ur biased god. If it were true, he is not fit to be god at all. One advice is to u. Treat everyone as the way u want to be treated. Bcos life is short and u are not goin to live for ever as a brahmin. When u die u might be surprised to see that u ve nt done any thing bt caste calculations. Ha ha ha. Pleasin appearance. U idiot. Aishwarya rai is the most beautiful girl in the world. Is she a brahmin. And oly a pleasin appearance quantifies som one to be a brahmin oly she can be one. Let me tel u wat is pleasin in appearance. Oly a child’s face. And if the child is branded on its birth to a particular caste, no doubt caste is worser than racism.
Hare Krishna,
in my opinion,today, prescribed duties of all people are actually what they are doing today,eg. a student has a duty to learn only,a job worker has to do his job only,no matter what caste,so it’s better to work with personally present environment as a service to Supreme Lord Krishna including the work for the welfare of His people by worshiping and meditating on Him who is residing in all living beings as per His words in Gita. And if one wants to decide what he shud do in condition of a choice then he may consider his duties according to Varnashram dharma. Eg,if a brahmin has to decide to do a business/not then he can reject it as per his duty in Varnashram dharma.
Hare Krishna.
Hare Krishna Pranao
Yes. You are right in the sense that both Krishna and Lord Caitanya stress that one should remain in his position and serve Krishna in that position. But in that position he has to use the fruits of his work for Krishna. So the duty of anyone engaged in any activities in the material world is to use the fruits of his activities in the service of Krishna. So it is not that it is the duty of a worker to do his job only. He does his job to make money so he can use the money to serve Krishna. That is the way that such apparently mundane activities can be transformed into spiritual activities. This is called karma-yoga and you can hear all about Karma Yoga from Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita.
Lord Caitanya often recommended that His followers, who often wanted to give up their material life and travel with Him, to stay where they are and speak about Krishna and serve Krishna…
But there is no point in a student just learning or a worker just working. That is not their duty. Their duty is to serve Krishna. So the fruits of the activities have to be used in the service of Krishna.
Otherwise if a student just studies and a worker just works without any connection with serving Krishna then they are just karmis, materialists, like everyone else…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Hare krishna.
Thanks for your valuable letters.
I have 1 request from u.
Can u plz send me a letter by wch a materialistic person is fully
convinced about accepting Krishna conciousness, and he will not have
any other alternative.
Because no 1 takes an initiative to read bhagvatgeeta.
I also request u to send me perports of 1ST 6 chapters of Bhagvatgeeta
if it is available in word format, because i have only the audio
format.
unable to fine yor all the posts tht r on home page, after loging in.
directly the page of profile appears, even after updating.
Plz tel me how to go to our home page after loging in.
plz try to mail me bc i can mis yor reply on this webcite if i dint visit it accedently.
Awaiting for your early response.
Hari Bol.
Hare Krishna Jyoti
There is no way to convince a materialistic person about Krishna consciousness. Krishna says that He gives memory, knowledge and forgetfulness. So Krishna helps the devotees to remember Him and give them intelligence how to understand Him. But for the materialistic persons He helps them to forget Him and gives them intelligence to develop so many godless and atheistic theories so they can scientifically convince themselves that God does not exist. So you can not convince a materialistic person like this.
Even when Krishna was personally present on this planet the materialistic persons could not accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They want to be god themselves. They do not want to accept any higher authority.
Of course the materialistic persons are also devotees of Krishna deep down and their original Krishna consciousness can also be awakened if they get the chance of associating with pure devotees of Krishna and hearing their chanting and if they get the chance to taste Krishna prasadam. So the best thing we can do for the materialistic persons is to become pure devotees of Krishna ourselves and go out on Sankirtan [many men chanting Hare Krishna together] and offer bhoga to Krishna and distribute the prasadam and Srila Prabhupada’s books to the materialistic persons. This will be very effective. But your direct preaching will not be effective. First their hearts have to be purified by hearing the chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra from the lips of the pure devotees and by tasting Krishna prasadam….
So we have to find people who are a little submissive and interested in hearing about God and talk to them about Krishna. Then our preaching will be very successful. And there are plenty of people like that.
You can read Bhagavad Gita on http://www.AsItIs.com or http://www.PrabhuapdaBooks.com or purchase the book in many formats at http://www.KrishnaStore.com.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Dear Bhaktas,
I have been following Krishna Bhakthi for the last 18 yrs and knowing little by little by reading Bhagavath Gita about Lord Krishna. I am not able to acquire the qualities of Brahmin as stated above,but umpteen times was showered upon by the blissful blessings of THE GOD.
My observation of the society in general is that it is based not on the quality one possess,but purely depends upon his birth. As a person born in Other Backward Classes, I was selected for a job by the Grace of LORD KRISHNA ,which is supportive to achieve my dreams of bringing my children up in the educational field.However there is no doubt that caste System plays an important position in the present day social set-up,by giving wider opportunities for the persons born in upper castes.
To prove my point, I cite about the liberalization in economic policies adopted by the Govt in the 1990s which expanded the gap between the rich and poor to a great extent and I am very firm in my opinion that it is the upper castes who are benefitted at the most economically,socially,politically and the lower castes were once again depreived of their due share in the development.My education and understanding hoped that all the people will get equal treatment but the results have shuttered my hope on this aspect of economic progress achieved by persons based on their Birth in upper castes.
Anyhow,I am attached to the Lord Krishna and his preachings in the holy Bhagavath Gita ,and my search is on for answers to so many questions that arose everyday,but I continue to sail in the Bhakti of Lord Krishna, and firmly believe cent percent that one day all my doubts will be clarified very conveniently by the Lord Himself.
But as per the present conditions in our society, brahmanas tend to work with present conditions and if it is so, then they can work as per karma yoga,told by Lord Krishna in Bhagavad Gita where karma yoga tells to do all the karmas(all karmas with a good conduct) considering them as their duty (dharma/kartavya) for the Supreme Lord Krishna without attachment and love for the work and home or any person living or dead. Hence the karma yoga can be followed by a person irrespective of caste,religion, sex(M/F),etc. Then everyone would get happy by the mercy of Lord Krishna.
Hare Krishna.
As per the qualities one should work accordingly. If he is a sudra by caste with brahman qualities he should work with them. Lord says by practicing and following his work qualities he may get perfect with full and complete devotion and worshiping to the Supreme Lord.
This is 1 case.
And on other hand if someone want to follow Lord: He says its better to die in doing ones’ own duties though he may do it imperfectly for doing other’s duties can be dangerous.
And finally He advices just surrender unto Him abandoning all attachments,false ego and religions so that the bhakt would do whatever path Lord shows in his (bhakta’s)life. Lord never differentiates anyone on cast.
So it depend on individuals personally that what they follow.
You guys need to give up this obsession with Varnasrama Dharma, This is nothing but the hideous caste system practiced up until the present day.
You say: The bottom line is the caste system cannot be eliminated. It is eternal.
Yet, you pretend through dubious arguments that you are not for the present day caste system when the bottom line is the Krishna movement is indeed an active supporter of the caste system!
You deliberately try to mislead us by dismissing the present day system as a perversion of Varnasrama dharma which according to you is a noble system.
Actually it is not. No God or person can divide people into different groups. Every person is born with different qualities or can imbibe different qualities in the course of his lifetime.
No where in your argument do you talk about marriage. Throughout Indian history where do you find examples of people marrying outside their castes. There are some exceptions though and these are mostly mythological. By and large the trend is to marry within one’s own caste.
The idea behind Varnasrma Dharma therefore is to prevent intercaste marriages and to promote racism.
Varnasrama Dharma is simply the caste system as practiced today. If you dismiss the caste system of today, why don’t you actually openly reject it and try to eradicate it. By not speaking up openly against the present caste system you are actually perpetuating it.
It is easy to see through this game. If you can fight against the present system, you can demonstrate it by
1) promoting intercaste marriages
2) interdining with people of other groups
3) promote vegetarianism, sanitation and hygiene among all classes of people in Hinduism
4) Eradicate untouchability and openly work towards homogenization of Hindu socieity.
If you can follow this plan, we can successfully make Hinduism and also propagate Krishna consciousness throughout the world without hypocrisy.
The onslaughts of Christianity and Islam are dangerous to this movement and hinduism in particular.
Instead of focusing on short term material gains and staying away from controversy, why
don’t we join in the effort to cleanse Hinduism and thereby make the Krishna movement the flag bearer of a rejuvenated Hinduism.
Let us take the glory of Krishna to every nook and corner of the earth in a non-hypocritical spirit
Let us eschew caste.
Well, since you claim you reject the present day caste system, can you give me examples of intercaste Krishna devotees in your movement having married transcending barriers of this varnashram dharma.
What greater (hard) evidence can you give to us, that you truly reject the caste system of today, than actually carrying out intercaste marriages.
Simply talking theory and philosophy is useless, unless there is concrete action.
Like the Christians and the Islamic people we need to have a society whose people freely intermarry without the horrific burden of the hideous and evil system of Varnasrama dharma (same as today’s caste system or yesterday’s caste system).
I hope this helps the movement.
Krishna never created Varnashrama Dharma. It is the handiwork of some evil Brahmins that resulted in the creation of the caste system that has been followed in the same form until today.
Please do not help these evil folks by being one of them and helping perpetuate the myth that the ‘caste system is not going away’.
If we can free ourselves from the shackles of caste, we free ourselves from the murderous and evil onslaughts of Christianity and Islam.
Do you want to save Hinduism? .Please do not dissociate yourselves from Hinduism. Hinduism needs a strong and rejuvenated and caste-free Krishna movement .
-ilango
– Show quoted text –
Hare Krishna Ilango
The Hare Krishna movement has nothing to do with Hinduism. ‘Hindu’ is a Mohammaden word referring to the people on the other side of the Indus river. You will never find the word ‘Hindu’ mentioned in any Vedic scripture, it is not a Vedic term at all. Hinduism is a collection of so many rascals fighting with each other with no clear understanding about anything.
We are Vaisnavas. Hare Krishna People. So we have no interest in these Hindu things.
As far as the caste system in India that is based on birth, that wrong, that is the problem. They say because one is born in a brahmin family he is a brahmin. That is not true. Krishna says in the Gita catur varnam maya srsta guna karma vibhagasa, “Naturally there are four divisions of men and they are determined by qualities and work.” So one is a brahmana only if he has the qualities of a brahmana and only if he works as a brahmana. This varnasrama system is unavoidable and society can not be managed if it is not properly divided into the four divisions.
But we are completely against the division being based on birth. The division has to be based on the qualities and the work of the people. That is the natural system which is everywhere anyhow…
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
Have you actually read anything that was said, or are you just talking because you have nothing better to do?
I live in New Zealand, The majority of the Iskon youth (my age group: 20 to 28) have long term relationships with people out side the movment. I my self am engaged to an Hindu girl who by the “mordern” caste system would be considerd a sudra, and I am brahmin by birth.
but if you go according to the vedic caste system everyone should aspire to have qualities of a brahmin. I personaly do not consider myself brahmin as i have certain qualities missing. But I am always aspiring to better myself and gain these qualities.
Cast system is is not talking about colour of skin, what language you speak or what religeon you follow.
I know many Christians and Muslims who have many qualities of a brahmin.
Hare Krishna Neelesh
I am reading Neelesh Prabhu and trying to answer the questions. I am not completely sure what your question is but we are not supporting the “modern” caste system you speak of. The caste system as it is currently understood in India is based on birth. It is understood that if one is born in the family of a brahmin he is a brahmin. But this “caste by birth” idea is not supported anywhere in the Vedic literature.
Krishna clearly describes in Bhagavad-gita: catur varnam maya srstam guna karma vibhagasa, “I have created four division and they are determined by guna [qualities] and karma [work]. So to be a brahmana one has to have the qualities of a brahmana and he has to work as a brahmanana. And Krishna also lists the qualities of a brahmana in Bhagavad-gita 18.42:
Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness–these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.
So if these qualities are actually present within a person and he is working as a brahmana, and a brahmana has six types of work: paṭhan pāṭhan yajan yājan danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brahmana primarly must be very learned in the sastras, he must be a very learned scholar, that is his first qualification. And he makes others scholars also, he is a teacher. Then yajan yājan, that means he worships the Deity and he teaches others how to worship the Deity and danaḥ pratigrahaḥ, he accepts contributions from others and he also gives the contributions to others. [gives and receives charity] So if someone does not have these qualities and is not working in one or more of these six occupations he is not a Brahmana. And if he has the qualifications and is working as a brahmana he is a brahmana. It has nothing to do with work.
So the whole modern Indian caste system is completely wrong an really you will not find any brahmanas among the so-called brahmanas…
The real system is Varnasrama-dharma, not the corrupt caste system current in India today.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
I have good mind on Hare Krishna and i want to be your son, your member, and a brother to this society. I have my own world and i choose what to do with my life. hope to hear from you soon
Hello evrybdy, its a reply to all above :
First of all I start with v.beginning wen Lord Krishna distributed works in human society by castes. At that time the duty of B was to study Vedas,to guide K, K for Power,weaponry, V for market , S to serve K & V in their works and a big misunderstanding which got more and more minds to live with, was that, this is a hierarchical system and sudras are lowest of all but its not a fact bcz Lord Krishna Himself made it by respective qualities of people in order to maintain peace and order in the society but some of our wise ancestors didnt think like that and B,K,V started to tease S and one more thought was there as for past lives but tell me is it necessary by any way that we hv 2 consider any1’s past life, it is a matter to be seen by Lord not humans they hv 2 only see their respective jobs but bcz Kali Yuga wished this,it happened. And 1 more thing some say if they hv gunas of other varna tey r of those varnas bt see Lord Krishna Himself told to do their respective jobs even if not perfect but it doesnt mean that there r not others who r perfect in their respective jobs in same caste and bcz of that, a selection procedure wud determine who is perfect for which post and and He is there to make perfect ones so why to worry and here no heridity shud be considered as said for the chair of supreme court judge.
Today too the duty of Brahmanas is to study and they can bcum technologists as per the modern age and work in Microsoft and IBM bcz if tey wud nt study then who will study tell me, to study is their duty but with that they should study Vedas as instructed. Sudras shud nt jump in politics and higher education or defence only bcz tey r stronger than Ksatriyas and hv more money,Ksatriyas shud be in politics and their grandchildren too and so on, Veshyas shud be limited to their business.Every1 shud mind their own business by respecting and following the order of Lord Krishna,its an only key to maintain law in the society,He is perfect in His work and thought,noone can challenge Him afterall He is our creature and we hv to follow Him and His order.
Hello evrybdy, its a reply to all above :
First of all I start with v.beginning wen Lord Krishna distributed works in human society by castes. At that time the duty of B was to study Vedas,to guide K, K for Power,weaponry, V for market , S to serve K & V in their works and a big misunderstanding which got more and more minds to live with, was that, this is a hierarchical system and sudras are lowest of all but its not a fact bcz Lord Krishna Himself made it by respective qualities of people in order to maintain peace and order in the society but some of our wise ancestors didnt think like that and B,K,V started to tease S and one more thought was there as for past lives but tell me is it necessary by any way that we hv 2 consider any1’s past life, it is a matter to be seen by Lord not humans they hv 2 only see their respective jobs but bcz Kali Yuga wished this,it happened. And 1 more thing some say if they hv gunas of other varna tey r of those varnas bt see Lord Krishna Himself told to do their respective jobs even if not perfect but it doesnt mean that there r not others who r perfect in their respective jobs in same caste and bcz of that, a selection procedure wud determine who is perfect for which post and here no heridity shud be considered as said for the chair of supreme court judge.
Today too the duty of Brahmanas is to study and they can bcum technologists as per the modern age and work in Microsoft and IBM bcz if tey wud nt study then who will study tell me, to study is their duty but with that they should study Vedas as instructed. Sudras shud nt jump in politics and higher education or defence only bcz tey r stronger than Ksatriyas and hv more money,Ksatriyas shud be in politics and their grandchildren too and so on, Veshyas shud be limited to their business.Every1 shud mind their own business by respecting and following the order of Lord Krishna,its an only key to maintain law in the society,He is perfect in His work and thought,noone can challenge Him afterall He is our creature and we hv to follow Him and His order.
[…] and References: https://krishna.org/the-indian-caste-system/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India This entry was posted in Social Commentary […]
“once I make the assumption that reincarnation functions as the system implies it does, the system does not exhibit any glaring logical inconsistencies.”
Of course there is a glaring logical inconsistency!
This is from the perspective of someone who does not believe in incarnation (a Christian).
Even if YOU have accepted that this system works, it does not mean that everyone around you accepts. And it surely does not suggest that our governing bodies should accept this.
The problem is that this line of thinking makes it easy for us to have no compassion for those who are worse off than us. It gives us a reason not to help those in need. Why would I help a dalit or a sudra if they were in that position because of their past transgressions? Moreover, why would society care about a dalit or a sudra if they were in that position because of past transgressions?
It makes life simple to keep people in their place because they deserve it; it is difficult to have (and act upon) compassion for people who cannot help themselves.
if you are converted into hindu faith do u have a caste
if you read this articale properly, you will realise you have a cast even if you not a hindu. Cast is based on ones qualities. go back up the top in the first three or 4 paragraphers, read the qualities, and see which one you fit into.
i myself was born into a brahmin family, i do not consider myself brahmin as i am not good enough. i try, and although i am a lot better than some people i know who call themself brahmins, i am still not good enough.
i belief that every1 no matter what cast you belong to, soud strive to attain the qualities of a brahmin.
it is one of he few things of which i disagree on in this articale, that it is better to perform ones own job according to cast wrong then persorm the duties of another case perfect. for if you ca perform the other cast perfect, then obvioulsy that is the cast you belong to.
But Communism is an interesting ideology in the sense that it aims to create a classless, stateless society on the principle that all men are created equal not some men are more equal than others. Of course one has to work hard and study and get the required qualification and experience for a job but even the highest job do not make one a “Brahmin” per se. A high paying, high status job do not necessarily mean that qualities such as “Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness” are respected when hiring someone. Corruption, money, influence, connection, political backing, family weight etc play a determining role in getting the top job in society nowadays and it can be observed worldwide to be such. In today’s world where mismanagement, bad leadership, corruption, money laudering and scam it is true to say that there are no longer ‘Brahmins” having the required qualities to govern with wisdom. Brahmins are no more. In fact there is no such thing as cast system except abilities to fit a profile of work to the best available candidate and boy the candidates are deficient! On the other hand I truly believe that all men are born equal despite their circumstances in life and no system can prevent a man born in humble circumstances to stay down. The death of a hierarchical cast system can only be welcome to that of a horizontal classification of mankind through self-realization that we are not this body, this present condition, this poor or high paying job etc.. but by recognizing that one is a divine soul.The ideology of communism could have worked wonders if only it would have put freedom of man and God in its equation but it may be not too late.
Rob, communism is one of those things that works well in theory, but is doomed to failure in practice. What motivation does someone have to be educated, to work hard, or to better himself or herself if, in the end, you end up with the same pay and social status of someone who is lazy and does not work hard?
The story is told of an economics professor whose students tried to advocate communism during a discussion early in the course. To make a point, the professor agreed to make everyone equal (that is to give everyone the same grade) no matter how hard they worked or how smart they were. The grade everyone would receive would be an average of the entire class’s grades. In the ‘real world,’ this would be comparable to paying everyone the same, no matter what their education, work ethic, ability, etc.
The grades would be an average because our society will not be judged by or based on how the best or the worst do, but how everything averages out.
When the first exam came around, some students studied very hard and spent a lot of time preparing. Some did not have to study as hard because the material came naturally to them. Other students did not understand the material very well and made no attempt to study. The results came back, and the grades ran the gamut from A’s to F’s, as they normally do. Therefore, the professor gave everyone ‘C’. The ones who did not study were elated at their reward, and thus their pension toward laziness and lack of work ethic was reinforced. Those who worked hard and would have received A’s or B’s were upset that their efforts were in vain in that they were essentially punished for the laziness of others. Those who had put forth some (but not a lot of) effort saw no difference.
When the second exam came around, those who had studied hard before remembered that their sacrifices of time and energy were not rewarded, so they put forth very little or no effort at studying. Consequently, the grades ran only for F’s to C’s. Therefore, the class average was a ‘D’. This time, those who had put forth even a little effort and would have received a ‘C’ were punished for the small sacrifices they made.
So when the third exam came around, no one put forth any effort. They each asked, “Why should I put time any time into studying when my grade will be pulled down by those around me who do not care and do not try? I’d rather spend time with my family and friends.” As you might imagine, all of the grades were very low, and everyone in the class received an ‘F’.
This continued so that at the end of the year, every student failed the class because no one was willing to work hard when his or her efforts would eventually be nullified by the lack of effort of those around them.
This is a bit of an oversimplification, but the idea can be seen in all of history’s communist societies. Granted, the fall of the USSR and the eastern bloc countries was hastened by (or some may even say prolonged by) totalitarian regimes, a lack of purpose in life…a lack of fulfillment in life was a leading cause (both spiritually and socially), in my humble opinion.
China does not fit this mold because they have changed their philosophy and laws in recent years so that the accumulation of wealth is now accepted and encouraged, creating an environment of competition-almost capitalistic in nature. But also creating a group of individuals who are, as you say, ‘more equal than others.’
Please do not misunderstand me, I understand that there are situations in which people who work hard and want to better themselves simply cannot because of factors beyond their control, especially in areas of the world where this type of caste system exists. These systems should be abhorred in the face of a merit-based society. My argument is only that communism is not the answer.
hi sir, Sir I have one thought for stop the violence for non vegetarian food, I hope this is best solution, and this is gift to human beings plse reply me sir,I have to tell u, Plse reply me sir
Madhudvisa, if you are not a Brahman yourself, you would truly be a model for them to follow.
In India since Vedic times a person’s caste was on the basis of one’s Karma or civic occupation and not birth. However that changed for the worse when the Brahmins decided that they wanted all power to emanate from them and the control they wanted to have on the Hindu society to curtail down their own uncertainities of life. This resulted that to have the same on the basis of caste got changed from one’s karma to one’s birth. Since the Brahmins weilded power and set the norms they easily changed the then existing norms before the aborted conquest of Mohammed Bin Qasim. And these crooked and faulty norms exist till date in India.
May I know Avunuri surname belongs to which.Caste?
Well , Avunuri surname belogs to KAPU Caste which I belongs and also it was seen in PADMASHALI Caste etc..
Few hundered years back It was a village name told by my grand father, now it was modified or called with different name.I guess this village is located in the interiors of Warangal or Karimnagar.
So i guess irrespective of CASTE those ancestors who lived here kept the Surname as AVUNURI I guess.
Guys wake up, its so stupidity to post this kind of information. Really does caste required in 21st century. Hope you guys are from Andhra interiors (red bus chaps) that is the reason you required Caste. What you will do by knowing caste, are you guys are giving your family ladies to this surname to marry or what.
So terrible, wake up …
Hare Krishna Ravinder
What is currently known in India as the caste system is totally corrupt and totally against the actual Varnasram system as it is described by Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita.
What you know as the “caste system” is case-by-birth. But what Krishna describes as the caste system is caste by guna and karma. Guna means qualities and karma means work. So a person’s caste has nothing at all to do with the family he is born in. Although it may happen that someone born in a particular family will have the opportunity to develop the qualities of his father and also work in the same way as his father. So in this case the son may have the same caste as the father. But it is not because he is the son of a father of a particular caste, but it is because his father has trained him and the son now has the qualities and is working as a particular caste.
Krishna clearly describes that this Varnasrama system is eternal. Krishna has created four types of men and four types work. And he has clearly described the qualities of the men who fit into these for different categories. So the caste system is eternal. It does not change over time. It is not just in India, it is everywhere.
You will find these four types of men and the four types of work in every society. All over the world. There are Brahmanas, Ksatriyas, Vaishas and Sudras. The brahmanas are the saintly intellectuals who have studied the Vedas and whose position in society is to perform worship in the temple, study the scriptures, perform yajna and give advice — to everyone, but particularly to the ksatriyas. The Ksatriyas are the administrators and leaders and military men. They are the actual leaders, like the Presidents and Prime Ministers of the countries. But they do not work independently, they take advice from the Brahmanas. The Vaisyas are the productive caste. They are the farmers and the businessmen.
The three higher casts are all independent in making their livelihood. Brahmanas do not accept a salary but they do accept some contributions from the people they are giving advice to. They can receive charity and they also distribute charity. For themselves they live a very simple life. Ksatriyas have some land and they are the king or proprietor of that land and they protect the people and in return the people who occupy the land give them some taxes. So that is the income of the ksatriya. The Vaisyas are farmers or businessmen. So they produce things and sell them and that is the source of their income.
Sudras, however, have no independent source of income. They must find a “boss” or a “master” and work for them and take a salary from them.
Now in India you see these puffed-up so-called Brahmanas who work for Microsoft or IBM… They are actually sudras. Because a brahmana will never accept service like this. This is why the social system in India has been destroyed and why there is such a strong movement to eradicate the caste system. Because what is going on in India now as the “caste system” is completely corrupt and has absolutely nothing to do with the system described by Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita.
The bottom line is the caste system can never be eliminated. It is eternal. These four types of men will continue to exist and the four types of work will also continue to exist.
But the problem in society is that the men are not being correctly identified or correctly employed. That is creating havoc everywhere. We have men who have no qualification at all for the higher two castes particularly, brahmanas and ksatriyas, working in these positions, and that is causing unlimited problems.
We have some sudras [workers] and we have some vaisyas [administrators, military], but nowadays it is very difficult to find any qualified brahmanas or ksatriyas.
Srila Prabhupada established ISKCON to correct this problem by training some qualified brahmanas and ksatriyas but unfortunately this is not being done by today’s ISKCON. So there is a great need for an organization to train qualified brahmanas and ksatriyas. It is the only way the world can get out of the mess it is currently in…
I have got some questions. I have to tell my class about how hindus experiences their religion. And I want to ask you some questions about how you think about the caste system and some other things. Those answers i will use in my presentation. Hope you can answer fast.
Define the term Hinduism if it is Sanskrit
M. Dasa:
Namaskar – The first thing I would like to say is I’m a Brahmin.You have written some good stuff. Please take back the below sentence.
If we are not working for some one what we should be doing? To whom we can go and give advise. People like you think you know everything and no need of advise. Is Ksatriyas ruling India? Is only Vaishas community doing business? Is only Sudras working for some one?
Now in India you see these puffed-up so-called Brahmanas who work for Microsoft or IBM… They are actually sudras.
Previously we used to work for kings and ksatriyas now we work for companies. All other castes are gelous of brahmins because of there progress. Every one has there own spot. You people need to stop this akarama. Otherwise you can expect more tsunami and you will washed away by Sri Krishna or Rama or Vishnu.
Hare Krishna Rajesh
You do not understand what a brahmin is.
Brahmins never “worked” for Kings and Ksatriyas at all. Brahmins advised kings who are ksatriyas but they never “worked” for them. They never took a salary from them, they were never actually dependent on them. The brahmins are always in a superior position and never work for anyone. The never accept service. Accepting service means becoming a servant of someone else. A brahman will never do this. Only a sudra can do this. A brahmin works as a brahmin. There are only six occupations for a brahmin: patan patan, yajan yajan, dhana pratigrha–he studies the Vedas and he teaches others from the Vedic texts, he performs Vedic yajnas and Deity worship and engages others in performing these yajnas, and he accepts charity and distributes charity. These are the six occupations of a brahmana.
In the case of an emergency a brahmana can accept work as a ksatriya, which means practically he can get some land and become a landlord and raise some money like that, or he can do some agriculture or business like a vaishya. The thing is these three higher castes in the Vedic system will never accept the service of someone else. Because when you accept service you surrender your independence to another person and have to work according to their orders. An actual brahmin will never do this. He can not do this and remain a brahmin.
So a brahmin will work as a brahmin or in an emergency can work as a ksatriya or a vaishya but he will never accept service like sudra–he would rather starve to death.
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
caste in india is by birth which is unfortunate as atma of donkey in previous birth may born in pandit’s house with caliber of donkey, who may be given any number of threads he has to work to earn his bread n butter whether on land or artisian or singing n dancing or else n it shall be idiotic to call him pandit. atma has to take birth accoding to his karmas if u discriminate/ tell lies /cheat /abuse / hate n so on rama killed bali born as krishna got killed by ordinary hunter, pandu killed the deer was cursed n his two wives had children from other person, dasharatha father killed shravan kumar got cursed n recently arushi hatya kand n so on. god /paramatma is never born /die. whosoever is born is not god. god made sristi does need service only needs love n rememberance to him n his creation. make the world a noble place for entire human race, for everyone is divine child(rig ved 10:13:1). in mannkind nobody is superior or inferior ,all strike together like brother for glory n prowess(rig ved 5:60:5).still some befool others,they will born as dogs.
AARAK SHUN
Sixty years after reservations were first introduced, classrooms in India’s premier institutes continue to be hostile towards dalit students. Sunday Times unveils their dark world
Shobhan Saxena | TNN
Aknock on the door always makes Amit nervous. If it is daytime, he quickly moves the book rack so that it hides the framed photo of B R Ambedkar, dressed in a dark suit and looking at some distant horizon. If it’s night, Amit lies still in bed, staring at the fan. As the banging goes on, he slips in and out of sleep. In his dreams he often sees a boy putting a noose around his neck. Sometimes he sees the boy hanging from a rope that’s furiously twisting by itself. Then there is dead silence. He can’t go back to sleep.
Amit, a student of IIT-Kanpur, is not suicidal. He has been to a shrink, though, and says he lives in some kind of dread. For two years, life on the campus was beautiful — at least until the day his classmates found out his caste, a fact he had masked with a caste-neutral surname. The Ambedkar photo had already made some “friends” suspicious, and when a clerk in the scholarship section “exposed” his caste, Amit’s world changed. He lost his place on the
dining table. The batchmates became hostile: jibes in the classroom or an accidental jab in the ribcage every now and then became a common occurrence. And the midnight knocks started. “They don’t want me to study. People may think it’s a seat of high learning but for me it’s living hell,” says Amit, who has a brilliant academic record. “People here don’t believe in merit. They will push you if you perform better than them,” adds the final-year student who is too scared to give his real name.
Amit is not paranoid. His fear is real. In 2008, the year he joined the institute, a fellow student called Prashant Kureel was found hanging in his room. In 2009, an MTech student, G Suman, killed himself. And in 2010, Madhuri Salve, a final-year student, used her dupatta to hang herself from the ceiling fan. All three were dalits and IIT authorities were quick to blame academic pressure for these deaths. “It’s because of constant ragging and brazen casteism on the campus that my son killed himself,” says Sunder Lal Kureel, the father of Prashant, as he continues his fight for justice.
But in this battle, Sunder Lal is alone. There are no middle class-led candlelight vigils at India Gate for Prashant. There are no campaigns by TV channels, just the lonely battle of a broken man. There are many like Sunder Lal in their peculiar tragedy. Since 2007, 18 dalit students pursuing engineering and medical courses in the country’s top institutes, including the IITs and All India Institute of Medical Sciences, have committed suicide. And here’s the real shocker: only one of them, Jaspreet Singh of Government Medical College, Chandigarh, left behind a suicide note. None of the others who hanged themselves or jumped from a building blamed anyone for pushing them to take the extreme step. “All of them had complained to their families about harassment at the hands of faculty and fellow students, yet they didn’t leave a suicide note. Only Jaspreet’s was there because his father found his body. We wonder what happened to all the other suicide notes,” says Ratnesh Kumar of Insight Foundation, which is trying to get justice for the families. “We’re sure the notes vanished because the victims had accused the authorities of harassment.”
Hidden in these missing notes are the dirty secrets of India’s top institutes, where dalits have been treated as outcastes ever since reservations were introduced for SC and ST students in the 1950s. Nobody likes to talk about this dark side. Now, as filmmaker Prakash Jha takes a “fresh look at the issue” with his Aarakshan, the dalits fear that the film may reinforce old biases. “We get only 15% seats, while the OBCs get 27%. But, it’s the dalits who have to face the brunt of hate campaigns,” says Surya Dev, a 25-year-old engineer from Guna, MP, who now works with the Insight Foundation helpline.
Ironically, anti-dalit sentiment erupted in 1991, when the V P Singh government decided to implement 27% reservation for OBCs. In the Capital’s “Left-leaning” university, JNU, caste clashes took place between students; in the dining-halls of IIT-Delhi, dalits were forced to sit on separate tables, and the walls of urinals in Delhi University were covered with puerile graffiti. And the authorities just watched. “The atmosphere in our institutions is very brahminical as the upper castes dominate the faculty. In such an environment, the lower caste students automatically become
outcastes,” says Dilip Mandal, who teaches at Delhi’s Indian Institute of Mass Communication (IIMC).
Many dalits have paid a price for being what they are. In 2008, Narendra Divekar and Nitin Kamble, who worked as cameramen at the Centre for Distance Engineering Education Programme at IIT Bombay, took part in a meeting of the institute’s union for backward classes. A torrent of casteist abuses from the centre’s web coordinator, Rahul Deshmukh, followed almost immediately. Deshmukh told them that they were “not fit to work here”. A complaint was made to IIT authorities and the police. But the abuse went on. Unable to handle it, the duo tried to commit suicide outside Deshmukh’s office.
Many, however, have fought back. Dr Ajay Singh, who joined AIIMS in 2002 with the same marks as the cut-off for “general” students, was the only dalit in his hostel wing. He was barred from entering the carrom-board room and one day someone scrawled “Nobody likes you here. F**k off” on his door. But Dr Singh fought back and that led to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh appointing a three-member committee, headed by University Grants Commission chairman Sukhdeo Thorat, to look into caste harassment in the country’s top medical institutes. The report was shocking: dalit students were bullied into vacating their hostel rooms, leading to a ghetto being formed on two floors of a hostel; they were specifically targeted during ragging; they were not allowed to play cricket and basketball; they were not allowed to eat in the “upper-caste mess”; and the teachers ignored them in class, sometimes deliberately failing them in exams. Shamed by the damning report, AIIMS took some remedial steps. “Now the hostels are allotted through a lottery system and general harassment has come down a bit, but all the recommendations of the panel are yet to be implemented,” says Dr Singh, who now works with a government hospital in Delhi.
But resistance is growing on some campuses. “Now the number of upper-caste and reserved category students is almost the same. It’s not easy to bully them,” says Mandal of IIMC. And dalits are now not prepared to be shunned by the system. “We started celebrating Ambedkar Jayanti on our campus to unite us,” says Manju Kumari Rao, 28, a former student of Benaras Hindu University who was once denied permission to go abroad on an exchange programme because she was dalit. “We don’t want to join the system, we want to change it.”
shobhan.saxena@timesgroup.com
Additional reporting by Anahita Mukherji
CAUGHT IN A DOWNWARD SPIRAL: Surya Dev, an engineer who works in Delhi, says reservation has “become a stick to beat dalits with”
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