Room Conversation with Scientists July 2, 1974, Melbourne (MP3 Audio)
April 20, 2011 by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Filed under MP3 Audio, Science
Therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain?
Prabhupada: …these are all misconceptions because I am not this body. I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit… They are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, white, black. Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they are dividing, this designation. So this knowledge that so long the spirit soul is there in the body, it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body?
Dr. Muncing: I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, it’s material and dead in the terms we use and the spirit moves on. And I accept from that that at that stage one has nothing to…, one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity and you can’t use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body.
Prabhupada: No, we don’t say neglect the body. But the important factor… Just like our, this Svarupa Damodara has explained that behind this material combination, there is an active principle which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect.
Dr. Muncing: I think I disagree with that.
Dr. Harrap: I’m a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would place a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community.
Prabhupada: That I admit. That I admit. Yes.
Dr. Muncing: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it’s about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Isn’t this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now?
Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this?
Guests: Yes, yes, I know.
Prabhupada: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch.
Dr. Muncing: I agree.
Prabhupada: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screw-driving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Where is that science? That is my proposition?
Dr. Muncing: It wasn’t the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn’t there a tendency…
Prabhupada: Creative faculty… Therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain?
Guest (2): But isn’t it the use to which the brain is put that is the…
Prabhupada: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? But as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein’s brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist.
Dr. Muncing: If we weren’t being recorded I would make a comment but we are, so I won’t. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present.
Dr. Harrap: This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.R.O. from cow’s milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it.
Prabhupada: Oh, thank you very much. So you can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweet ball?
Satsvarupa: Where are they? I could not find them just now.
Prabhupada: You go and find out.
Dr. Harrap: This is a variety of cheese that, what we call a gouda cheese which comes originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. It seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more and more popular in these countries.
Prabhupada: From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations.
Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam. Krsi-go-raksya. People… A class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk, sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food.
Dr. Harrap: It’s a complete food in itself.
Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are meat-eaters, they can eat other non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-raksya. It does not say, Krsna, “elephant-raksya.” Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. So therefore it is recommended, go-raksya. It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other non-important animals but don’t kill animal, er, cow. And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she is mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: adau mata, real mother. Adau mata, guru patni, the wife of guru, spiritual master. Adau mata, guru patni, brahmani, the wife of a brahmana. Brahmana means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are brahmana, that is also mentioned there in the sastra. So his wife. Adau mata, guru patni… In general the understanding is, except your wife all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Canakya Pandita. Matrvat para-daresu: “All women should be treated as mother.” Para-daresu. Para-dara means others’ wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanya-daya. You cannot evade this responsibility. You must. The father’s duty is, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over: “My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection.” This is marriage. And he agrees, “Yes, I take charge of this girl.” In our society, we get married. Your government has approved our society that we can…
Madhudvisa: The Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Krsna movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages.
Prabhupada: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that?
Satsvarupa: “Don’t be alarmed at the Hare Krsnas.” (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell…
Guest (2): Yes, if we were alarmed we wouldn’t be here.
Prabhupada: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and… It is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasurehouse of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is an institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know what is the active principle of life.
Guest (2): Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some…
Guest (1): I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first.
Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brahmana friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India?
Prabhupada: Yes, from the revealed scripture we can understand from… You have got the first part of Bhagavatam?
Caru: Yes, right here.
Prabhupada: The Asvatthama released the brahmastra?
Satsvarupa: That’s in three I think.
Prabhupada: Similar nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmastra. So when this brahmastra was released by one Asvatthama, the same symptom of nuclear weapon… Krsna krsna maha baho. That is…
Satsvarupa: We don’t have that volume.
Prabhupada: Why you are lacking? You have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said, “Yes, we have got enough stock.”
Madhudvisa: We have them but we do not have them here.
Prabhupada: No, that is not… Here are people coming, gentlemen coming.
Madhudvisa: The question was, Srila Prabhupada, that he wanted to know what you are thinking about India, India’s…
Prabhupada: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Why shall I think for India? Vasudha eva kutumbakam. When we become God conscious, then we don’t think in that way, “I am Indian,” “I am Englishman,” “I am Australian,” “I am this,” no. We don’t think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Panditah sama darsinah. Find out this verse.
vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
“The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater.”
Prabhupada: Because our vision is from the standard of the soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So panditah sama-darsinah means a learned, advanced, spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. such and such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah.
Caru: Ahankara vimudha.
Prabhupada: Karanam guna-sango ‘sya. Find out this verse.
prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah
kartaham iti manyate
“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature.”
Prabhupada: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural, the material nature’s protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body, next life I may get another body. That is explained. Tatha dehantara prapti. We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education. There is no science, but this is a fact.
Guest (2): Well, it’s just on five. Do you want to sneak in one?
Madhudvisa: These are preparations which is prepared from Australian milk.
Prabhupada: Let him take. Yes.
Guest (2): Oh, thank you.
Madhudvisa: Give a napkin. It’s a sweet preparation called gulab jamin. It is all prepared just from milk which has been made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee, cooking ghee, and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and it is very palatable. It’s called a gulab jamin. It is a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafoetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely.
Prabhupada: This cheese as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat.
Guest (2): Yes, yes. Similar protein.
Prabhupada: So why the animal should be killed? Take milk.
Guest (2): What is sweet water? You mean just sugar…
Guest (2): Now is this made here or in India?
Madhudvisa: Yes, we make it ourselves. Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science.
Prabhupada: No, no, I am teaching them, “Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead.” You can take it. It is very nice.
Guest (2): You mean to eat it now?
Guest (2): I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife.
Prabhupada: No, no, you take, you take it. You just…
Madhudvisa: I can give you another.
Prabhupada: Yes. If you like we shall give you more.
Satsvarupa: It’s very sweet. Watch it, it’s very drippy though.
Guest (2): Yes, it looks like it.
Prabhupada: And if you send us cheese like this we can send you many things. (laughter)
Dr. Muncing: It’s very nice, but I must save some for my family.
Dr. Harrap: I’d probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but… (laughter)
Dr. Muncing: It’s very good.
Prabhupada: Shall I give you more?
Dr. Harrap: No, that’s very nice, thank you. It’ll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home?
Madhudvisa: Oh yes.
Dr. Muncing: Well, this has been most interesting.
Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Public relations for dairy research.
Madhudvisa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues. Fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply if I disagree with you we’ll just fight. There has to be fine brain tissues in order to say, “Let us sit down and talk about this together.” And we say, not we, but according to the scripture, there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products, not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products, the consumption of milk products and development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly, not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. The vegetables, rice, even if rice was boiled, milk was put on, ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical progress.
Prabhupada: And thousands of tons of ghee, clarified butter, was offered in the yajna. The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation.
Guest (2): Well, thank you…
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. (end) [740702r2.mel]
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada